True or False - ASA

[IRISHMAFIA]

One out, runner on 1B. B hits a long fly ball to LF. R1 is between 2B & 3B when the ball is caught. R1 returns to 1B, but misses 2B along the way. The ball is overthrown at 1B allowing R1 to now advance to 2B. The defense appeals that R1 should be out for missing 2B on the way back to 1B even though R1 is now standing on 2B. The umpire rules R1 out on appeal.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

One out, runner on 1B. B hits a long fly ball to LF. R1 is between 2B & 3B when the ball is caught. R1 returns to 1B, but misses 2B along the way. The ball is overthrown at 1B allowing R1 to now advance to 2B. The defense appeals that R1 should be out for missing 2B on the way back to 1B even though R1 is now standing on 2B. The umpire rules R1 out on appeal.

yeah coz once you pass 2nd base you cant retreat to tag up in this scenario. so they would have to appeal the tagup at first?
so that would make my answer: false... wrong appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

yeah coz once you pass 2nd base you cant retreat to tag up in this scenario. so they would have to appeal the tagup at first?
so that would make my answer: false... wrong appeal.

Why not? There is no restriction in ASA concerning returning to touch any missed bases or bases left too soon unless they have already advanced to the next awarded base.

[CajunNewBlue]

she passed 2nd base... then try to retreat..yes?

[CajunNewBlue]

my gut tells me this is just a DMR play and play stands as is.... but im trying to find the trick in the question... lol

and I dont have a ASA rulebook.... forgot to ask Santa.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

she passed 2nd base... then try to retreat..yes?

So?

[CajunNewBlue]

ok so then if she had passed home plate, in ASA they are allowed to retreat? or is this apples and oranges?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

ok so then if she had passed home plate, in ASA they are allowed to retreat? or is this apples and oranges?

Not quite apples and oranges. Maybe more like oranges and tangerines.

As long as a trailing runner has not yet scored or the runner has not entered DBT, yes.

[Dakota]

Don't forget, guys, the restriction on retreating after passing a base in ASA is on awarded bases, not bases in general.

[CecilOne]

The fly ball was caught, so R1 has to return to 1st properly, touching an passed bases aclong the way. The subsequent advance has nothing to do with that and any advance or award on the throw still requires the return to 1st.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The fly ball was caught, so R1 has to return to 1st properly, touching an passed bases aclong the way. The subsequent advance has nothing to do with that and any advance or award on the throw still requires the return to 1st.

Other than making sure the cap is on the eggnog, where are you going with this?

[greymule]

This question involves what OBR calls "last time by." As with many interpretations, this is not specifically spelled out in either the OBR or the ASA rule book. I asked years ago whether ASA recognizes this principle, and the answer on this board was "no," which ASA subsequently reaffirmed to me in an e-mail.

Therefore, in the OP, the ASA umpire made the correct call by ruling the runner out on appeal. In ASA, a runner cannot correct a miss simply by touching the base "last time by." In the OP, R1 must touch 2B on his way back before retouching 1B. For example, if the throw to 1B entered DBT, R1 would have to retouch 2B, then retouch 1B, then take his award (3B or home depending on where he was when outfielder released the ball.) An umpire accustomed to OBR rules would have to know that ASA does not call this play the same way.

OBR also has a stipulation that a "gross miss" of a base (by more than a body length) cannot be corrected last time by. ASA does not recognize the concept of a gross miss (versus a regular miss), and in this case, it wouldn't matter anyway, since "last time by" is not an issue in ASA.

I don't know how deeply anyone has ever analyzed this play, but there is a question in my mind as to whether R1 should be out for missing second or for failing to retouch 1B. (In other words, maybe the umpire was wrong to grant the appeal.) Obviously, if after missing 2B on his return, R1 ran two-thirds of the way back to 1B and didn't touch 1B, he could turn around and correct his miss at 2B and then, assuming he had time, retouch 1B and advance to 2B. So it seems to me that technically, that appeal that he missed 2B may not be valid, since he is standing on 2B. But since his retouch of 1B came before his legal retouch of 2B, he thus never actually returned to 1B. (Perhaps, in ASA's thinking, by standing on 2B he has now corrected his miss, but he has not yet legally retouched 1B.) Therefore, the trick might be that the appeal has to be for failing to tag up properly at 1B, not for missing 2B.

I'm assuming that, in the OP, "the ball is overthrown at 1B" means that the ball gets away and remains in play (does not enter DBT).

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

One out, runner on 1B. B hits a long fly ball to LF. R1 is between 2B & 3B when the ball is caught. R1 returns to 1B, but misses 2B along the way. The ball is overthrown at 1B allowing R1 to now advance to 2B. The defense appeals that R1 should be out for missing 2B on the way back to 1B even though R1 is now standing on 2B. The umpire rules R1 out on appeal.

Correct. 2008 ASA 8.3.A

When a runner must return to a base while the ball is live or dead, the bases must be touched in reverse order.
EFFECT: The runner is out, if properly appealed.
EXCEPTION: On a foul ball.

[greymule]

There's no question that in ASA R1 is liable to put out on appeal. However, exactly what is the violation? What violation does the defense appeal to the umpire? Is it the miss of 2B (remember, he's standing on it) or the failure to retouch 1B properly (after retouching 2B)?

In other words, does ASA consider R1, standing on 2B, to have fulfilled his responsibility to touch 2B, but—because he didn't retouch 2B first—to have failed in his responsibility to retouch 1B after the catch?

We might ask how R1 would correct his error(s) if he was between 3B and 2B when the throw was released, and then the throw entered DBT. If R1 had missed 2B on the way back to 1B, retouched 1B, and made it to 2B as the ball went out of play, how would he take his award (home)? Would he have to retreat and retouch 1B, retouch 2B, and then retouch 1B again before he took his award? Or would one retouch of 1B with a subsequent retouch of 2B be enough? (Or at this point is the error uncorrectable?)

[CajunNewBlue]

yeah... how does a runner fix this?