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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 09:02am
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Jericho Scott

In case some of you haven't heard, I thought I would post a link to this article. Political correctness and fair play are just getting way too out of hand.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 12:36pm
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Angry

The saga continues: taking legal action

The league should tell the whiners to take their fragile little johnnies and have them play communist kickball, where they can all run around the field and no one can be embarrassed about not actually having any playing skill, and they can end the season with their participation ribbon on the wall and their delicate self-esteem intact.

Except for some side-bars to this story:

The pitcher at the center of this was apparently asked to join the previous league champion team before the season, but instead joined another team. If the league is "just for fun" why is there recruiting?

Second, a league official at the center of the move to ban the kid is the manager of the team that asked the kid to join before the season.

Third, if the team is disbanded, this league official's team (surprise) becomes the champion.

This isn't about a kid being too good, it is about adults playing hardball with a "just for fun" 10U baseball league.

Absolutely shameful.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 12:39pm
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This wouldn't have happened in Cal Ripken.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 01:24pm
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Last year my younger daughter, 9 at the time, was playing in the local rec league 10U division. One of the other teams had a pitcher who could throw in the mid to high 40's already, and had good control (I don't think she ever hit anyone). The other team normally only pitched her one, maybe two innings, sometimes none. Most of the batters either swang way late, or didn't swing at all. A lot jumped out of the box. No other team had a pitcher in that class, either the speed or the control.

Would we have told this girl she couldn't pitch? No. Did we think the coaches showed class by not thowing her every inning?! You betcha. (League rules this year prohibit a pitcher from throwing more than 2 innings in 10U so that you have to have more to your team than one awesome pitcher.)

This pitcher played 12U in a different league this year and did pretty well. You may have seen her. She pitched 9 of ten innings to win the semi-final game in the LLWS in Portland.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 07:30pm
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While I don't agree with the way it was handled, I can understand the request and I do not believe the request is unreasonable. This is, AGAIN, a private group that has every right to run their business as they see fit.

It wasn't like they threw the kid out of the league, they just asked the coach to not pitch him. If they did not want to comply, the league offered to return the parents' money, so there is no effort to cheat anyone out of anything.

I have yet to read one word which denies the accuracy of the league's concern. And, as far as I am concerned, no court has the authority to tell them how to run their league.

OTOH, let's assume this league receives support, financial or otherwise, from the city of New Haven (i.e., public fields, maintenance, etc.). Now, the court does have some say.

Let's assume the court tells the league they must allow the player to pitch. Now the parents refuse to allow their children to participate. What's the judge going to do, order the other children to stand in the batter's box against this kid?

If common sense prevailed, which IMO so far it hasn't, the kid's parents would explain to their son he has a helluva gift which raises his level of play above that of the rest of the league. They would TELL the coach he is to play whatever other position is available and while this season winds down, would be looking for a higher level of ball for their son to play next season.

Of course, the alternative is the ruination of a recreational league and an obvious loss to the community and it's youth.

But sometimes you just have to offer up the good of the community for the egos of some idiot parents.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 08:36pm
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Several things:

Contract law does not exempt private businesses or organizations. I have no idea if there was an agreement that would constitute a contract, but if so, the league may be cooked. For example, ASA is a private business; they have player eligibility rules. If those are followed, they cannot just decide to ban a player because he/she is "too good" for the age division.

The league is not operating in good faith. The manager of the second place team (who is also a league official) knew how good the kid was and tried to recruit him. Now that he is on another team and winning the league championship, he is "too good"? Sure, right. You bet. All kinds of things wrong with this. How can a rec league have player recruitment? How can the same person both want the player on his team, but claim he is too good for the league if he is on another team? How can a league official use his power to disqualify the opponent's star player so his team will be champion?
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Last edited by Dakota; Tue Aug 26, 2008 at 08:40pm.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 09:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Several things:

Contract law does not exempt private businesses or organizations. I have no idea if there was an agreement that would constitute a contract, but if so, the league may be cooked. For example, ASA is a private business; they have player eligibility rules. If those are followed, they cannot just decide to ban a player because he/she is "too good" for the age division.
Apparently, you are not familiar with the ASA Elite Player list.
Quote:

The league is not operating in good faith. The manager of the second place team (who is also a league official) knew how good the kid was and tried to recruit him. Now that he is on another team and winning the league championship, he is "too good"? Sure, right. You bet. All kinds of things wrong with this. How can a rec league have player recruitment? How can the same person both want the player on his team, but claim he is too good for the league if he is on another team? How can a league official use his power to disqualify the opponent's star player so his team will be champion?
Putting aside all the BS with the alleged adults (and you thought SP players were bad), if this is a private group operating a league involving voluntary
participation on private property, there is...excuse me, "shouldn't be" any assumed legal rights by any individual. Of course, that doesn't stop anyone, parent, lawyer or judge from declaring themselves as the god of the community and start telling people how to run their life.
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Old Tue Aug 26, 2008, 10:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Apparently, you are not familiar with the ASA Elite Player list.
No, I'm not. So, riddle me this: a player who has no history of play at any level other than B is rostered on an ASA 10U B team according to the ASA Code as a 10U B team. Neither the team nor the player has ever won a national tournament at any classification. This team then has an undefeated season because the player is a lights-out pitcher. Can ASA then require the team to remove this player from the roster or to not play her at the F1 position because she is "too good" for a B team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Putting aside all the BS with the alleged adults (and you thought SP players were bad), if this is a private group operating a league involving voluntary participation on private property, there is...excuse me, "shouldn't be" any assumed legal rights by any individual. Of course, that doesn't stop anyone, parent, lawyer or judge from declaring themselves as the god of the community and start telling people how to run their life.
The league is probably a 501(c)(3) non profit, which means, among other things, they must abide by their own by-laws. If their action against this player violates their by-laws, you bet legal action can be taken against them.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2008, 07:51am
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Most 10U girls teams would be looking for a new pitcher if she only three 40 MPH.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2008, 08:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
Most 10U girls teams would be looking for a new pitcher if she only three 40 MPH.
Travel: Maybe.

Rec: no, 40 is an adequate speed. At this age in the three rec leagues I'm familiar with, most of the pitchers are still trying to throw strikes.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2008, 12:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
No, I'm not. So, riddle me this: a player who has no history of play at any level other than B is rostered on an ASA 10U B team according to the ASA Code as a 10U B team. Neither the team nor the player has ever won a national tournament at any classification. This team then has an undefeated season because the player is a lights-out pitcher. Can ASA then require the team to remove this player from the roster or to not play her at the F1 position because she is "too good" for a B team?
No, ASA would not, but that is because they only deal with Championship play. But your argument is weak as this kid DID have a track record to the point of being recruited, so his abilities should not have been a surprise to anyone. BTW, when it comes to "B", ASA does show a concern as last year they banned any collegiate player from the B ranks.

Quote:
The league is probably a 501(c)(3) non profit, which means, among other things, they must abide by their own by-laws. If their action against this player violates their by-laws, you bet legal action can be taken against them.
And without knowing their by-laws, who is to pass judgment upon their actions? Not you or me.

Do you think the by-laws actually state that any player has a "right" to participate in whatever manner and at what position they determine is proper? If that were so, half the team would have to be allowed to pitch, the other half play outfield and rarely would anyone catch. Then again, you never know if these parents had anything to do with the by-laws, it may just say that, but I doubt it.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2008, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
No, ASA would not, but that is because they only deal with Championship play. But your argument is weak as this kid DID have a track record to the point of being recruited, so his abilities should not have been a surprise to anyone. BTW, when it comes to "B", ASA does show a concern as last year they banned any collegiate player from the B ranks.
As information dribbles out, he had more of a track record than was apparent from the first story. He is apparently also rostered in another league on a more advanced team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
And without knowing their by-laws, who is to pass judgment upon their actions? Not you or me.

Do you think the by-laws actually state that any player has a "right" to participate in whatever manner and at what position they determine is proper? If that were so, half the team would have to be allowed to pitch, the other half play outfield and rarely would anyone catch. Then again, you never know if these parents had anything to do with the by-laws, it may just say that, but I doubt it.
True enough. I was just addressing your private business argument. If they are 501(c)(3) they gave up some of their freedom to be arbitrary in exchange for the tax-free status. I would imagine the by-laws do cover the process for changing the rules covering player eligibility. If they do, and if they did not rigorously follow this process (including a paper trail), they may be in deep doo doo if the shyster the parents have hired takes them to court.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2008, 01:03pm
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This is the reason that in a perfect world members of the board of directors for a league should not have a kid playing in the league at all, nor should they coach a team in that league. Now I said in a perfect world, I know that wont happen in real life, only so so many people that will dedicate time to these types of things. So they end up wearing multiple hats.

Well after being involved with a rec league for 8 years as UIC I have been a voting member of the board for these years. I can say that this type of manipulating occurs often. Things go on and are spun in ways to get things passed that have an advantage to a certain team. Maybe that is why I got a different feeling from the story than some of you did, having this past knowledge of being on this board and having seen some people work. But with the facts that are in the story, I canít see it any other way.

1) Team A, defending league champs, wanted a player to play for them, that player decided to play for team B
2) Team B is undefeated in the season, putting Team A in second place
3) After 8 games with no issues from the pitcher, no injured players from his pitching, not even a hit batsman, coach of Team A starts proceedings to get Team Bís pitcher removed from pitching giving Team A the chance to take the lead in the league.

Again maybe I am bias due to my experiences, but I just canít see it any other way. I am not a lawyer so I donít know what law, or by-law you want to use to justify this but IMO this is nothing more than a coach wanting to pound his chest and make sure his kid gets the trophy that is an inch taller than the other teams. A trophy that will collect dust until it gets boxed up and stored eventually thrown awayÖ..but maybe not this oneÖ.it might stay forever displayed as the one that Daddy won us by getting that Scott kid banned from pitching.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2008, 03:04pm
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Been there, done that and it stinks.

However, what do you think once you take away all the parental/political BS?
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Old Thu Aug 28, 2008, 12:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
How can a rec league have player recruitment?
Been away from rec ball for a while?
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