Shirt quality versus pricing?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Then there are people like me, who find it appalling that umpires are expected to give up every inch of individualism, that I would be "worried" about not having the lineup card in the wrong place, etc.

Ever been in the military, Rich?

Speaking ASA, a part of being an umpire is appearance. Yes, in your game, I'm sure your a cleaned and pressed with the best of them, but umpires in non-matching uniforms and equipment on the same field just doesn't look right to many, including me. I started in baseball at 14 and left what little I was doing at the time at 36.

Much of the difference is we all belong to a single, nationwide organization. When we walk on the field, part of the key is for the teams to not know the difference between umpires. ASA prefers a uniform presentation and I believe it actually helps sell the umpire's image.

Many baseball umpires "think" we are robotic in our signals. We are not. We all use the same base, but there every umpire has their own little character included in many calls. Many may not notice because you haven't been through some of the training we have. That is another point. Our training is based nationwide. The UICs are trained to train and take the tools and methods back to our local associations and train others. Unlike our local baseball brethren, we don't just slide a tape in the VCR for the trainees. I'm sure that is not done everywhere, but everywhere in baseball does not have the national-based support group an ASA umpire does.

One of the best compliments I've received was at the Men's A Industrial National Championship. Halfway through the game, a coach came up to the PU and myself and said, "you guys must be local and work together all the time." When asked what gave him that impression, he responded, "well, you are always in position, you are not getting into the other guys area and you barely speak to each other." He was shocked to find out that the PU and myself had just met each other about an hour before the game and we really never got a chance to talk things over with the guy working 3rd because he was just moved to this game off another field.

Our training and uniformity is what allows this impression and better yet, to actually work a game with a complete stranger and do it well. And I think you would agree that is a good thing.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ever been in the military, Rich?


Our training and uniformity is what allows this impression and better yet, to actually work a game with a complete stranger and do it well. And I think you would agree that is a good thing.

I agree also...as a newbie I work towards looking and acting like any umpire i perceive to be professional and competent, not only in making calls but in appearance. as far as I have been trained (clinic'ed) the only latitude we have in FED, ASA and USFA ball regarding personalism is during a non-swinging, non-dropped third strike call. and have been told countless times that being "unique" on the field just draws attention to yourself and that is a big no-no.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...A sport where the uniform isn't expected to be "uniform". A game where coaches don't expect the professionalism of their umpires to be displayed by their uniform, equipment, or mechanics. ...

Originally Posted by RichMSN

...It insulting to me for you to think I'm less professional than you because I can choose a mask color or have a big silver New Balance "N" on my shoes or because I point to the side when calling strikes.....

I would imagine someone who struggles with reading comprehension would be insulted a lot.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Personally, I think softball umpires worry too much about things completely irrelevant to the quality of actual umpiring...

After reading the nine-page, 125-response thread over on the Baseball Board, regarding which color of ball bag looks the best, you might surmise that baseball umpires suffer from the same affliction.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

I agree also...as a newbie I work towards looking and acting like any umpire i perceive to be professional and competent, not only in making calls but in appearance. as far as I have been trained (clinic'ed) the only latitude we have in FED, ASA and USFA ball regarding personalism is during a non-swinging, non-dropped third strike call. and have been told countless times that being "unique" on the field just draws attention to yourself and that is a big no-no.

You believe that because that's what's been taught to you. It doesn't make it inherently correct.

I prefer this quote, myself:

"One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life. Control of the ballgame is the difference between umpires that show up for the players and the managers." -

Umpire Bruce Froemming

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BretMan

After reading the nine-page, 125-response thread over on the Baseball Board, regarding which color of ball bag looks the best, you might surmise that baseball umpires suffer from the same affliction.

Not same, but related. I guess it would be easier if some national association told us what to wear, but it wouldn't be as much fun.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

One of the best compliments I've received was at the Men's A Industrial National Championship. Halfway through the game, a coach came up to the PU and myself and said, "you guys must be local and work together all the time." When asked what gave him that impression, he responded, "well, you are always in position, you are not getting into the other guys area and you barely speak to each other." He was shocked to find out that the PU and myself had just met each other about an hour before the game and we really never got a chance to talk things over with the guy working 3rd because he was just moved to this game off another field.

Our training and uniformity is what allows this impression and better yet, to actually work a game with a complete stranger and do it well. And I think you would agree that is a good thing.

Good umpires in baseball can do the same just as easily. I worked a college conference tournament this year with guys I'd never met until that day. We worked CCA mechanics, 3-person, and had an abbreviated pregame and everything was covered correctly. We didn't talk to each other during the games at all, if I remember correctly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are good and bad baseball and softball umpires out there, probably equally on both sides. I try to learn from good umpires no matter the sport. I shake my head at bad umpires, regardless the sport and remind myself to pack it in before it ever just becomes a paycheck.

I gotta get back to the ball bag argument on the other board now

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

..."One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life. Control of the ballgame is the difference between umpires that show up for the players and the managers." -

Umpire Bruce Froemming

You'll not find too many MLB umpire groupies on this site. But, regardless, there is a big difference between wanting to hide to stay out of trouble with his call versus wanting to showboat with Naked Gun mechanics and patent leather ball bags.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You'll not find too many MLB umpire groupies on this site. But, regardless, there is a big difference between wanting to hide to stay out of trouble with his call versus wanting to showboat with Naked Gun mechanics and patent leather ball bags.

God, for a second I thought you said "patent leather ball gags." What a difference a letter can make!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

You believe that because that's what's been taught to you. It doesn't make it inherently correct.

Nor does it make it incorrect or wrong as many little ball guys who jump on this board insist. I am not counting you among them, but it happens. It is, however, correct to the organizations the umpire has chosen to join. And since it is their sand box, you play by their rules. If the umpire doesn't like it, they can go elsewhere. That is a choice we all make.

I prefer this quote, myself:

"One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life. Control of the ballgame is the difference between umpires that show up for the players and the managers." -

Umpire Bruce Froemming

Nothing new here. I agree with Froemming. It isn't the point that umpires are noticed, but what caused them to be noticed. A sports official is part of the game and his presence is required. I've met many people who extol the point an umpire isn't noticed. I've also seen these same umpires ignore calls to maintain that status. That is neither good for the umpire or the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Nor does it make it incorrect or wrong as many little ball guys who jump on this board insist. I am not counting you among them, but it happens. It is, however, correct to the organizations the umpire has chosen to join. And since it is their sand box, you play by their rules. If the umpire doesn't like it, they can go elsewhere. That is a choice we all make.



Nothing new here. I agree with Froemming. It isn't the point that umpires are noticed, but what caused them to be noticed. A sports official is part of the game and his presence is required. I've met many people who extol the point an umpire isn't noticed. I've also seen these same umpires ignore calls to maintain that status. That is neither good for the umpire or the game.

Something tells me we work from very similar playbooks.

Speaking of playbooks, time to put the knickers and white hat on and go do one of those football games.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

You believe that because that's what's been taught to you. It doesn't make it inherently correct.

I prefer this quote, myself:

"One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life. Control of the ballgame is the difference between umpires that show up for the players and the managers." -

Umpire Bruce Froemming

I'm pretty sure he was talking about making the correct call in difficult situations.... not about wearing (ohhh lets see... just from this weekend's tournament) patent leather military shoes... pants so tight they ride up halfway up the shin guards...white gardening gloves (my personal favorite yes!!) hats on backwards (sigh) ballbags on the bases) and a myriad of bad mechanics. these are the things i dont want to be noticed for. now wearing a nice quality low priced shirt would be ok

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

I'm pretty sure he was talking about making the correct call in difficult situations.... not about wearing (ohhh lets see... just from this weekend's tournament) patent leather military shoes... pants so tight they ride up halfway up the shin guards...white gardening gloves (my personal favorite yes!!) hats on backwards (sigh) ballbags on the bases) and a myriad of bad mechanics. these are the things i dont want to be noticed for. now wearing a nice quality low priced shirt would be ok

Let's eliminate that patent leathers from that list. The other items are gross items that some basic training, if not common sense, would take care of.
I have worn that patent leathers, and probably will continue to in some games. I will probably not replace them, when the time comes. Regardless of the "standard", I do believe that they add to the positive impression I want to make when I take the field - but, as I said, I will probably not replace them and I will be semi judicious as to where I wear them as I do accept and abide by the "standards" of whatever sanctioning body I am working for.

Now, I've seen pants that were too tight and clowns with backwards hats - I think they're matched by players and other punks who wear their hats sideways. I've seen slow pitch folks with ballbags on the bases. But I have never seen white gloves on an umpire - what the devil is the reason for that?!?!

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Steve M

I think they're matched by players and other punks who wear their hats sideways.

Ohhh...I forgot to mention...that I am SUCH a hard a$$...in slow pitch games, I make all players wear their hats with the bills forward. No sideways or backwards hats. I think it is one of the reasons some of my peers here love me soooooooooooooooo much.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Let's eliminate that patent leathers from that list. The other items are gross items that some basic training, if not common sense, would take care of.
I have worn that patent leathers, and probably will continue to in some games. I will probably not replace them, when the time comes. Regardless of the "standard", I do believe that they add to the positive impression I want to make when I take the field - but, as I said, I will probably not replace them and I will be semi judicious as to where I wear them as I do accept and abide by the "standards" of whatever sanctioning body I am working for.

Now, I've seen pants that were too tight and clowns with backwards hats - I think they're matched by players and other punks who wear their hats sideways. I've seen slow pitch folks with ballbags on the bases. But I have never seen white gloves on an umpire - what the devil is the reason for that?!?!

Not to pick-nits or anything, but these were patent leather military shoes.... flat smooth soles... not the patent leather athletic type. the white gardening gloves were some type of sun protection (i'm guessing). call me crazy, but if i had to dress like this guy to protect myself from the sun.. i'd take up referee'ing volleyball.