Officiating Quality in the PAC-10

[BTTB]

I'm not an official; I'm a season ticket holder, and a 30+ year college basketball fan. I have a point of view about the quality of basketball officiating in the PAC-10, but I'm not looking to bash the entire industry. I have a couple of sincere questions, and would welcome some straightforward responses.

First of all, my opinion is that the quality of officiating in the PAC-10 is extraordinarily poor compared to other major D-1 conferences, and that this has been true for a decade or more. I believe that my opinion is the generally held view among serious fans of our program, and it seems to be the prevailing attitude conference-wide as well. I haven't seen a fan seriously take the opposing view in years. So, regardless of any other rivalry or perceived outrage, we all seem to have that in common.

PAC-10 officials call games very "closely" compared to other conferences, but are very inconsistent as well, with infractions and personal fouls called for a certain kind of behavior in one game, or one half, and not called for the same behavior in another game or half. Taken together, the constant injection of the officials into the game, in an apparently subjective way, just sucks the fun right out of the game. And every year we have a couple of games which at first stand out as particularly well played and entertaining; to the point that we don't just guess, but we know, that the game officials just cannot be PAC officials.

So here are my questions:

1) Does the PAC have the same reputation among other conferences and/or within professional refereeing circles that it has with the fans?

2) Are the PAC officials more or less qualified on average than other officials, and/or are they compensated as well, more, or less than other officials?

3) Does anyone know where the "hyper-strict" officiating style of the PAC comes from, and for what purpose?

4) What can the fans do to focus attention on this subject, if it isn't perceived as a problem by those who should know better?

BTTB

[Edited by BTTB on Jan 21st, 2004 at 12:13 PM]

[Danvrapp]

Originally posted by BTTB
So here are my questions:

BTTB - I'm not a college basketball official, but I'll take a crack at it.

1) Does the PAC have the same reputation among other conferences and/or within professional refereeing circles that it has with the fans?

I don't think so. I'm an east-coaster, so I don't watch alot of PAC-10 ball, but I'm unaware of any biases.

2) Are the PAC officials more or less qualified on average than other officials, and/or are they compensated as well, more, or less than other officials?

Definitely not! If you look at the names of several of the guys working your games, you'll see they're not bottom of the barrel material. I can't guess for compensation, but I'm sure they're right on par with the rest of the country.

3) Does anyone know where the "hyper-strict" officiating style of the PAC comes from, and for what purpose?

Could be the official's assignor. If you boss tells you to do something this way or else, then you do it the way he wants it! Certain assigners want their officials to work certain scenarios specific ways, if only for consistency. These practices may vary conference to conference, and assignor to assignor.

4) What can the fans do to focus attention on this subject, if it isn't perceived as a problem by those who should know better?

For that I can't answer much. Perhaps contacting a director of the conference, either by mail or electronically. Maybe one of the college officials could give a better answer.

BTTB
[/QUOTE]

[JRutledge]

I attend the Big Ten Men's Tournament every year. I will be in Indianapolis this March once again. I hear the opposite comment about Big Ten Officials. They let too much go. Someone once told me that "this is why we can never get teams to advance in the NCAA Tournament, the game is not called like that in the tournament." Well the funny thing, the Big Ten has the most (or at least did) Final Four appearences than any other conference. And that year this comment was made, Indiana went to the Championship game against Maryland.

The moral of this story, fans complain to complain. It does not matter what the reality is or if it is based on anything concrete, they just complain. The bottom line is that all fans think the officials are terrible. I am sure you hear similar things in the other major and minor conferences.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Hey, nice!

[zebraman]

Originally posted by BTTB
I'm not an official; I'm a season ticket holder, and a 30+ year college basketball fan.

Fan is short for fanatic. You are biased. The Pac-10 officials are excellent. The Pac-10 fans are the same as anywhere else... convinced that the officials suck.

Z

[pizanno]

Originally posted by BTTB

1) Does the PAC have the same reputation among other conferences and/or within professional refereeing circles that it has with the fans?

Out here in the West, Pac 10 has the reputation of being the hoops pinnacle, including officiating.

2) Are the PAC officials more or less qualified on average than other officials, and/or are they compensated as well, more, or less than other officials?

More qualified (however you may be defining it). These are the most respected officials in the area. Many are working multiple D1 conferences. Pac 10 is the highest paying conference out here.

3) Does anyone know where the "hyper-strict" officiating style of the PAC comes from, and for what purpose?

Rough play has been a Point of emphasis in NCAA mens for the past few years. You may be observing some of the "reining-in" of the game.

4) What can the fans do to focus attention on this subject, if it isn't perceived as a problem by those who should know better?

Not much you can do. You've obviously seen alot of basketball throughout the years, so you'd agree that the game is changing and becoming more physical. Officials are challenged to maintain fairness and control.

Wait until you start seeing all of those fouls at the end of the game called as intentional fouls.


[/B]

[BTTB]

I said I wanted direct replies, and I meant it. Some of these answers, though, I find pretty surprising. For one, JRutledge and zebraman seem more cynical about the game than I am. I think the problem in the PAC can be fixed, we just need to acknowledge that we have one, and get after it. JRutledge concludes that the problem will never be solved because it is 100% the fault of the fans, and that they're all alike, and can't be fixed. zebraman's opinion is even simpler, almost timeless: "I'm a fanatic, I'm biased, and I'm wrong".

Look guys, I'm sure that the job's rewards doesn't always include an adoring public, and I know that the game is fast, and the job is hard. I agree that missed calls will always be a part of the game, and that errors are completely unavoidable. But that's not what I'm talking about. And I assure you, there IS a problem in the PAC, and I didn't cause it. In fact I'm quite comfortable with the diagnosis as I laid it out. I've seen it hundreds of times with my own eyes. I asked if the reputation extended to other circles, if they were clearly under qualified and under compensated, and who might be pulling their strings.

Besides, there was no problem with PAC 10 officiating prior to the early 1990's. And for the 25 or so years prior to that, there was considerable stress related to new rules and rule enforcement. There were penetration rules, "closely guarded" rules, and a 60 second clock before the current rule was established. The dunk was banished and restored, the "alternating possession" replaced the jump ball, 3 point shots were added (from 2 separate distances), freshmen became eligible, the top 60 teams qualified to play for the National Championship, coaches started to make $1 Million per year, a third referee was added to each crew, and national broadcasts of even fairly unimportant games became commonplace. The game is dynamic. And I am unaware of any unusual stress to the rules of the game right now. In fact, I would think the opposite is probably true. And yet I don't ever remember a time in which the PAC officials were anything like as intrusive on the game, or when differing officiating "philosophies" and or inconsistent rule enforcement were more distracting, detracting, or more determinative of game advantage or outcomes than now.

And without taking personal offense to the generalization, I'm just not buying the "fans never change, they all think referees suck" routine. I know there are some WACK-o's there, but the stereotype just doesn't fly with me. It;s lazy, and it's just a cop out.

Finally, if this is all in my head, and I'm participating in a psychotic mass movement that lacks all merit, and if the PAC officials are as good as there are anywhere, then there is something else I'm gonna have to figure out. Why do so many PAC 10 coaches elect to allow their intersectional opponents to provide the game officials, home and away, and not use PAC 10 officials when they travel, as they have the option to do? That it should be a better option to use your opponent's officials EVERY TIME you play them, than to EVER involve your own conference officials in the contest is counterintuitive to me, at least if there are no quality issues. Any ideas?

BTTB

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by BTTB
I'm not an official; I'm a season ticket holder, and a 30+ year college basketball fan.

Translation: I'm a fanatic follower of one of the Pac-10 teams who lost a few days ago - not because they played bad or got outplayed, or had an off day. It was, of course, because Pac-10 officials really suck.

I have a point of view about the quality of basketball officiating in the PAC-10, but I'm not looking to bash the entire industry.

Translation: No offense, but most officials really suck.

First of all, my opinion is that the quality of officiating in the PAC-10 is extraordinarily poor compared to other major D-1 conferences, and that this has been true for a decade or more.

Translation: I think Pac-10 officials really suck

I believe that my opinion is the generally held view among serious fans of our program, and it seems to be the prevailing attitude conference-wide as well. I haven't seen a fan seriously take the opposing view in years. So, regardless of any other rivalry or perceived outrage, we all seem to have that in common.

Translation: Some of my friends think Pac-10 officials really suck, too.

PAC-10 officials call games very "closely" compared to other conferences, but are very inconsistent as well, with infractions and personal fouls called for a certain kind of behavior in one game, or one half, and not called for the same behavior in another game or half. Taken together, the constant injection of the officials into the game, in an apparently subjective way, just sucks the fun right out of the game. And every year we have a couple of games which at first stand out as particularly well played and entertaining; to the point that we don't just guess, but we know, that the game officials just cannot be PAC officials.

Translation: I think Pac-10 officials really suck

So here are my questions:

1) Does the PAC have the same reputation among other conferences and/or within professional refereeing circles that it has with the fans?

Translation: Don't you think the Pac-10 officials suck?

2) Are the PAC officials more or less qualified on average than other officials, and/or are they compensated as well, more, or less than other officials?

Translation: No, really, don't they suck?

3) Does anyone know where the "hyper-strict" officiating style of the PAC comes from, and for what purpose?

Translation: Come on, somebody should be able to tell me why they suck.

4) What can the fans do to focus attention on this subject, if it isn't perceived as a problem by those who should know better?

Translation: Is there any way I can contact the Pac-10 Officials Association, so I can tell them directly that I think they suck?




I think Rut's got it bang on.

BTTB - go scream at the TV or something.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BTTB
I said I wanted direct replies, and I meant it. Some of these answers, though, I find pretty surprising. For one, JRutledge and zebraman seem more cynical about the game than I am. I think the problem in the PAC can be fixed, we just need to acknowledge that we have one, and get after it. JRutledge concludes that the problem will never be solved because it is 100% the fault of the fans, and that they're all alike, and can't be fixed. zebraman's opinion is even simpler, almost timeless: "I'm a fanatic, I'm biased, and I'm wrong".

First of all, drop one of those damn post please.

Do not put words into my mouth about what I think about officiating. I know that you are a fan, probably never officiated anything in your life. Probably never read a rulebook extensively or seen one at all. As far as I am concerned, there is no problem. The problem is that guys like you come here to be critical of an entire conference, without any knowledge of what they do to begin with. All you are saying is that they are bad. No discription of a play or calls they they make that are wrong. If you think the state of the Pac-10 is so bad, become an official and do something about it. It is so easy, then there is an easy way to solve the problem.

It is really easy to sit on the sidelines and complain. But when I told you about my experience sitting in the stands during the Big Ten Championship, most fans think the officials are against their team. They all think they are horrible. They all think it hurts the league. And they all think "over the back" is a foul. Enough said.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BTTB

Finally, if this is all in my head, and I'm participating in a psychotic mass movement that lacks all merit, and if the PAC officials are as good as there are anywhere, then there is something else I'm gonna have to figure out. Why do so many PAC 10 coaches elect to allow their intersectional opponents to provide the game officials, home and away, and not use PAC 10 officials when they travel, as they have the option to do? That it should be a better option to use your opponent's officials EVERY TIME you play them, than to EVER involve your own conference officials in the contest is counterintuitive to me, at least if there are no quality issues. Any ideas?

Hey Genius. Every conference does that to a certain extent. For one, most officials that work in any major conference, work in other major conferences. Just about every "big time" official works at the very least 3 Major conferences. Just goes to show how little you really know about officiating. Because someone that works in the PAC-10, probably works in the WAC or Mountain West, just to name a few. It is not unusual to see Ted Higgins work the Big 12 on Monday, the ACC on Tuesday and then Conference USA on Wednesday. And if I am not mistaken, just this week he was on ESPN the last 3 days with a similar schedule.

Just shows how little you actually know. Because the "non-conference" games are not given to push over officials. At least not when big time conferences like the Pac-10 and the Big Ten play each other.

You have a lot to learn.

Peace

[Mike Burns]

I live in Florida, so I didn't even know the west coast had a conference. Seriously way to late for me to catch those games.

SEC RULES!

[BktBallRef]

BTTB, there's no such thing as PAC-10 officials. The officials who work the PAC-10 are the same officials who officiate in the WAC, the Big Sky, and the MWC. It's very unusual for an official to only work in one conference. Most work several different conferences. I have a friend who may be working an ACC game tonight, a Big East game tomorrow night, an Atlantic Sun game on Saturday and an SEC game on Sunday. These guys are all over the place.

As for your concerns and that of the other fans that you've spoken to, the complaints are no different than what fans in the rest of the country say. ACC fans think the game is called to closely. Big Ten fans think the games is called too loosely. Fans have misconceptions about the rules and think this should be called, that shouldn't be called or don't understand what was called.

To my knowledge, there is no inner circle of officiating that feels the officials who work PAC-10 games have a bad reputation. They are just as qualified to work D1 games as any other D1 officials. If there were a problem, it would already have been addressed by those who "know better." It's not anything that the fans should have any input in.

Probably not the answer you wanted but asked for straightforward responses.

[devdog69]

As usual, you guys that do not work in the major college conferences are answering questions and making smartass remarks about something you are just guessing. The guy has a legitimate question and is not attacking anybody. Give him a intelligent answer or shut the hell up.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by devdog69
As usual, you guys that do not work in the major college conferences are answering questions and making smartass remarks about something you are just guessing. The guy has a legitimate question and is not attacking anybody. Give him a intelligent answer or shut the hell up.

With all due respect, so I guess I had to do a State Final in my state in order to know what the officials go thru when they are there?

That is the dumbest logic I have ever heard. Some of us know people that work D1. I personally work for an assignor that is rather well known and works D1. Not only has he told me personally some things, he has shared many things about who works where and how you can get there. And that is just one official. Forget the others that I have talked to (not just me btw) that work D1 and talk about what they do and how the system works. So if you think that is being a smart-***, because we are sharing what is not only true but not a secret, sorry to disappoint. If you have another perspective, share it. But nothing that anyone talked about was not true. You do not get to the Pac-10 conference by just working the Pac-10. You might have to do a West Coast Conference or many other mid-major conference to even get consideration. Works that way where I live. You just do not walk into the Big Ten without doing the Missouri Valley or the Mid-Con, for example first.

Peace

[devdog69]

Originally posted by JRutledge

With all due respect, so I guess I had to do a State Final in my state in order to know what the officials go thru when they are there?

That is the dumbest logic I have ever heard. Some of us know people that work D1. I personally work for an assignor that is rather well known and works D1. Not only has he told me personally some things, he has shared many things about who works where and how you can get there. And that is just one official. Forget the others that I have talked to (not just me btw) that work D1 and talk about what they do and how the system works. So if you think that is being a smart-***, because we are sharing what is not only true but not a secret, sorry to disappoint. If you have another perspective, share it. But nothing that anyone talked about was not true. You do not get to the Pac-10 conference by just working the Pac-10. You might have to do a West Coast Conference or many other mid-major conference to even get consideration. Works that way where I live. You just do not walk into the Big Ten without doing the Missouri Valley or the Mid-Con, for example first.

Peace

Hey, Jeff,
Do me a favor. Don't big time me about your state championships...I wasn't exactly picking you out, anyway. My point was we had a legitimate fan who had a legitimate question and I don't think we should belittle him just because he's not a referee. I also have several friends that work or have worked DI, so that crap doesn't get you anywhere with me. I did not say anything bad about the PAC-10 guys, ou will notice. I'm just saying that just because the guy is a fan and not a ref, let's not ridicule him, okay?