check swing

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

OK, I am going to high-jack this thread just to have some fun.

Same situation; checked swing, PU says Ball, F2 misses pitch.

B1 backs out of the batter's box, but F2 retrieved the ball quickly and R1 does not come home. As F1 walks back to the plate area, she (or her coach) asks you to appeal the check swing.

1. If you are the PU, would you appeal? Yes? No?

2. If you were my partner, and you thought the checked swing went too far, would you call strike? Yes? No?

The reason I am asking this is that B1 stayed at home due to the BALL call. If the call is changed to a strike, B1 has no chance to advance and is tagged out by F2 at the plate. By appealing, and risking a change to a strike, are we puting the offense at a disavantage?

WMB

OK, IF this is ASA or Fed ball, I am not going to my partner. My response is "Catcher, I had a great look at that one. There was no swing."
In college ball, I go to my partner & we have whatever my partner has.
If I'm the BU, you get whatever I saw every time you come to me.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Steve M

OK, IF this is ASA or Fed ball, I am not going to my partner. My response is "Catcher, I had a great look at that one. There was no swing."
In college ball, I go to my partner & we have whatever my partner has.
If I'm the BU, you get whatever I saw every time you come to me.

In college, no option, we must go if asked. BU must make the call s/he saw; period. In ASA/NFHS, it is optional, but, I will not refuse just because I called it and no one ran; that is their problem, and their failure. If I know I saw every part, I might refuse, but, if there is any chance I might have not seen it all (and that is very likely if you track the ball all the way), then refusing to go for the checked swing help is just wrong, IMO.

As BU, if PU asks me after calling it a swing, it just doesn't matter what I think of the judgment. My response will be "I cannot rule on a called swing; that cannot be appealed to the base umpire".

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In ASA/NFHS, it is optional, but, I will not refuse just because I called it and no one ran; that is their problem, and their failure.

You called the pitch a ball - and it is the batter's failure to run? ? ? Are you going to tell the coach to teach his players that anytime they have two strikes and a check swing to run regardless of the PU's call? Is it the player's failure that they listened to you?

WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

OK, I am going to high-jack this thread just to have some fun.

Same situation; checked swing, PU says Ball, F2 misses pitch.

B1 backs out of the batter's box, but F2 retrieved the ball quickly and R1 does not come home. As F1 walks back to the plate area, she (or her coach) asks you to appeal the check swing.

1. If you are the PU, would you appeal? Yes? No?

2. If you were my partner, and you thought the checked swing went too far, would you call strike? Yes? No?

The reason I am asking this is that B1 stayed at home due to the BALL call. If the call is changed to a strike, B1 has no chance to advance and is tagged out by F2 at the plate. By appealing, and risking a change to a strike, are we puting the offense at a disavantage?

WMB

There are some times we have to apply the rules, even if it does not seem fair to someone. In this case, unless 100% certain there was no swing, the PU should ask the BU and go with the call. No, the batters should not be taught to run with 2 strikes regardless of the call, but should know that her "swing" might be ruled a strike and react accordingly.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

You called the pitch a ball - and it is the batter's failure to run? ? ? Are you going to tell the coach to teach his players that anytime they have two strikes and a check swing to run regardless of the PU's call? Is it the player's failure that they listened to you?

WMB

I've thought on it.. I think I must have had this happen, although I dont recall it being a big deal.

When the situation was put to print, I was able to think on it, which I have.

Its a rare time that I agree with you.

As PU - I'm just going to disallow it based on the fact the offense was disadvantaged by the initial call and we go on.

As BU, I'm going to call what I saw, so if the PU does come to me he gets what I saw.

The only time I hedge my calls on BU/PU is when I think my partner has weakly allowed the coach to get him to "go for help" on a call.. I will just back up my partners call and talk with my partner as soon as I can to let them know we don't "go for help" just because a coach is whimpering his way to a 2nd chance at a call.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

There are some times we have to apply the rules, even if it does not seem fair to someone. In this case, unless 100% certain there was no swing, the PU should ask the BU and go with the call. No, the batters should not be taught to run with 2 strikes regardless of the call, but should know that her "swing" might be ruled a strike and react accordingly.

I think NCAA has a rule that you MUST allow the check swing appeal.

As far as I know, unless mike is going to say "look at page ___ para 2 line 4", ASA doesnt require it and so its not an appeal play as it essentially is with NCAA

In ASA I believe the God Rule can be applied here as a saving grace as well.

[IRISHMAFIA]

A) If the umpire calls the pitch a strike, there is no appeal in any way shape or form. Why is that, you ask?

Because if you did not see the ball pass through part of the strike zone, or did not see a swing, you would have called it a ball. Like outs, strikes shouldn't be "guessed". So, if you called a pitch a strike, you saw a strike and/or the batter swing.

Going for help on a swing/strike call is acknowledging you do not know what you are doing behind the plate.

B) A base umpire should ALWAYS offer what they saw. Again, if unsure of the alleged swing, the BU should offer a "safe" signal with a verbal "NO".

C) ASA does not require the PU ask for help upon request, but indicates a PU that is unsure of a swing SHOULD go to the BU for help (ASA Umpire Manual, page 221 ).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

You called the pitch a ball - and it is the batter's failure to run? ? ? Are you going to tell the coach to teach his players that anytime they have two strikes and a check swing to run regardless of the PU's call? Is it the player's failure that they listened to you?

WMB

Exactly right. If I am unsure there was a swing, I am required to call the pitch a ball. The batter needs to know that there can always be an appeal, and if she did swing, the pitch can be changed to a strike. In that case, she needs to do whatever she needs to do; because me doing my job exactly as prescribed is NOT putting the batter in jeopardy. Her swing puts her in jeopardy, because that is strike three.

That is simply part of the game, it happens all the time on strikes one and two; and if it happens on strike three, oh well, it is still part of the game. The defense is entitled to the proper call if the pitcher created a pitch that enticed the batter to swing; no matter who makes the proper call.

Can you quote me one softball umpire manual in any association that suggests there is a difference in handling a checked swing based on the count? Or, do they all tell you not to guess the swing strike, but go for help when you are uncertain? IMO, you have bought into a baseball philosophy, which is the only place I know where that is preached.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Can you quote me one softball umpire manual in any association that suggests there is a difference in handling a checked swing based on the count? Or, do they all tell you not to guess the swing strike, but go for help when you are uncertain? IMO, you have bought into a baseball philosophy, which is the only place I know where that is preached.

Well, not that precisely, but changing the call is definitely dealt with in the rule book.

ASA 10-3-C

The plate umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire’s decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy.

Is checking with your partner on a checked swing at the request of the defense and having the BU rule 'strike' a reversal? Yes. Is the reversal delayed? Yes. Did the delayed reversal put the BR in jeopardy? Well, the answer to that question is the crux of the matter, isn't it?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Did the delayed reversal put the BR in jeopardy? Well, the answer to that question is the crux of the matter, isn't it?

No, not really. You can resolve the issue with the answer to one question. Which player caused the issue.

The pitcher? No. The catcher? No, because if the batter didn't offer to hit the ball, failing to catch it is irrelevant. The runner on 3B? No. The coach? Definitely helped. The batter? Well, if the ball was in the strike zone, the umpire would have called the strike and there would be no issue. Apparently the coach thought the batter didn't check. The only thing that placed the BR in jeopardy was the batter's indecision and failure to hit the ball once s/he begins the swing.

Remember, a check swing is a batter-related shortcoming. It is not practiced. It is not an offensive strategy. A check swing is a weakness of the batter caused by indecision and inability to properly judge the pitch.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A check swing is a weakness of the batter caused by indecision and inability to properly judge the pitch.

That is an interesting philosophy Irish, though I suspect neither of us have any scientific or historical data to support our beliefs. I see it the other way.

A checked swing is a superior skill of a batter to react at the last instant to discontinue a swing already started because the pitch is not what the batter wants to hit.

Keep in mind that a 60mph pitch passes the batter 1/3 of a second after being released. Most batters are starting to uncoil with the release of the ball and are making decisions in that 1/3 second.

I find it interesting that many umpires want to place the fault on the players for things that don't go right in a game. In this situation, the umpire, in his honest and best judgment called the pitch a ball. The batter heard that and stayed home. Why can't we admit that it was the umpire's changing of the game situation that put the batter in jepordy? Isn't our primary function to keep a fair and equitable balance between the offense and the defense? Isn't that why we have the rule that Dakota quoted?

IMO, the PU should deny the appeal request; even to telling the coach why. If the appeal is made, than the BU should recognize the situation and simply say, "No, she didn't swing." Don't give me that crap that a BU is obligated (by some mythical umpire union's bylaws!) to signal exactly what he saw. His obligation is to keep the game fair. He does that by saying "No" to what he saw.

WMB

[GRUMP]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

IMO, the PU should deny the appeal request; even to telling the coach why. If the appeal is made, than the BU should recognize the situation and simply say, "No, she didn't swing." Don't give me that crap that a BU is obligated (by some mythical umpire union's bylaws!) to signal exactly what he saw. His obligation is to keep the game fair. He does that by saying "No" to what he saw.
WMB

Even if the BU observes the " checked swing " bat pointing to center field?

What other situations should we " keep the game fair " by signaling the opposite of what we see ?

TIA

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

That is an interesting philosophy Irish, though I suspect neither of us have any scientific or historical data to support our beliefs. I see it the other way.

A checked swing is a superior skill of a batter to react at the last instant to discontinue a swing already started because the pitch is not what the batter wants to hit.

Keep in mind that a 60mph pitch passes the batter 1/3 of a second after being released. Most batters are starting to uncoil with the release of the ball and are making decisions in that 1/3 second.

I find it interesting that many umpires want to place the fault on the players for things that don't go right in a game. In this situation, the umpire, in his honest and best judgment called the pitch a ball. The batter heard that and stayed home. Why can't we admit that it was the umpire's changing of the game situation that put the batter in jepordy? Isn't our primary function to keep a fair and equitable balance between the offense and the defense? Isn't that why we have the rule that Dakota quoted?

IMO, the PU should deny the appeal request; even to telling the coach why. If the appeal is made, than the BU should recognize the situation and simply say, "No, she didn't swing." Don't give me that crap that a BU is obligated (by some mythical umpire union's bylaws!) to signal exactly what he saw. His obligation is to keep the game fair. He does that by saying "No" to what he saw.

WMB

I think in principle.. you are correct on whether to allow the appeal.

I think in a game, I probably wouldnt think quick enough to not allow it.. so the runner would get zapped if BU rang em up.

I think if the appeal is granted, the BU MUST give his actual opinion of what he saw. You cant fudge this one.

When I fudge that is when I have a weak partner who needs training on when to allow a coach to get you to "go for help", so he improperly allows it - so I will just affirm my partners call and talk to them at the 1/2 inning. A check swing is a perfectly acceptable reason to go for help, in the same light of pulled foots, bobbles, pick offs with improper position, etc.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

That is an interesting philosophy Irish, though I suspect neither of us have any scientific or historical data to support our beliefs. I see it the other way.

That's why it's called an opinion

A checked swing is a superior skill of a batter to react at the last instant to discontinue a swing already started because the pitch is not what the batter wants to hit.

Keep in mind that a 60mph pitch passes the batter 1/3 of a second after being released. Most batters are starting to uncoil with the release of the ball and are making decisions in that 1/3 second.

Based on this analogy, wouldn't that mean that a majority of pitches are exactly what the batter wanted to hit, or the majority of the players lack the skill or reaction ability to check their swing? If not, would not every batter begin their swing on every pitch and then check up assuming they did not have a "take" signal?

I find it interesting that many umpires want to place the fault on the players for things that don't go right in a game. In this situation, the umpire, in his honest and best judgment called the pitch a ball. The batter heard that and stayed home.

Since there are multiple scenarios in this thread, it would be nice to know of which one you are referring. Seems to me, I remember the coach screaming "run" somewhere along the way. That is not staying at home.

Why can't we admit that it was the umpire's changing of the game situation that put the batter in jepordy? Isn't our primary function to keep a fair and equitable balance between the offense and the defense? Isn't that why we have the rule that Dakota quoted?

No problem. If the batter demonstrated their masterful skill of being able to execute a check swing successfully, the BU wouldn't have called it a strike. So you now want it both ways. The batter fails to contact the ball on an actual swing and because the plate umpire didn't catch it, let's just stop the game.

What happens if the run scores on a wild throw to 1B and it is then determined it wasn't a swing. Are you going to unscore the run and put the player back on base? If not, then you cannot expect to save the batter from their self-inflicted misfortune. Cannot have it both ways.[/quote]

[mcrowder]

Does anyone have a problem, in a sitch exactly like this, with PU asking immediately, and not waiting for the coaches or the catcher to request an appeal? If PU does this, then if she did swing, she has the opportunity to try for first and neither team has been put at disadvantage by the delayed appeal.