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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 08:16am
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Doesn't look back rule apply here?

This occurred at a high school varsity game last weekend. There were 2 outs and a runner at 3rd. Batter was walked. Catcher immediately threw the ball to the pitcher in the circle. Batter touched 1st base and, without breaking her stride, proceeded to 2nd. The pitcher threw to 2nd to get the 3rd out. After the throw was made to 2nd, the baserunner stopped 3/4 of the way to 2nd and ran back to 1st as the 2nd baseman chased her. She reached 1st and was called safe. Of course the baserunner at 3rd scored.

Should the walked batter have been called out as soon as she stopped and made her move back to 1st?

Thanks for your help.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 08:31am
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Once the pitcher made a play, the LBR was no longer in effect. The Batter-runner was free to stop and return at that point.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 10:25am
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Even if F1 did not make a play, the B-R was still allowed to stop (once). Then she would (immediately) continue to 2B, or return to 1B. After that, another stop or reversal would get her called out under the LBR.

WMB
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 10:41am
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I thought that once the B-R makes a move toward 2nd, while the ball is in control of F1 in the circle, that the B-R must proceed to 2nd. I had a player called out in this situation because she retreated to 1st.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 11:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg43
I thought that once the B-R makes a move toward 2nd, while the ball is in control of F1 in the circle, that the B-R must proceed to 2nd. I had a player called out in this situation because she retreated to 1st.

As noted, there was a played made by the pitcher. There is no LBR if the pitcher makes a play.

Also, ALL runners get one stop/reversal.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg43
I thought that once the B-R makes a move toward 2nd, while the ball is in control of F1 in the circle, that the B-R must proceed to 2nd. I had a player called out in this situation because she retreated to 1st.
In the instance where you had a player called out, did the pitcher, who had control of the ball in the circle, make a play(a fake throw is considered a play) on your runner, or did she just stand there?

The information that you have been given thus far is correct. ANY play made by the pitcher releases the runners so far as the LBR is concerned.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 11:15am
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This happened a couple of years ago but I will never forget it. The pitcher just stood there. This situation was slightly different because our B-R, who was walked, took one step into the field and immediately returned to 1st. No "hard move" was made to 2nd. She was called out as soon as she returned to 1st.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestMichBlue
Even if F1 did not make a play, the B-R was still allowed to stop (once). Then she would (immediately) continue to 2B, or return to 1B. After that, another stop or reversal would get her called out under the LBR.
WMB
Agree with you WMB.
Of course if there's a play or an attempt... it's a no brainer (don't you say this way? )
But even if there's a simple walk, BR is still allowed to pass 1B ant THEN decide what to do.

This is from ISF Rulebook:

Rule 8
Sec.9 RUNNER IS OUT

v. (FP ONLY) When he is legitimately off his base after a pitch, or as a result of a batter completing his turn at bat
and, while the pitcher has the ball within the pitcher's circle, he does not immediately return to his base, or
attempt to advance to the next base.
EFFECT - Sec. 9v:
1. The ball is dead and all other runners must return to the last legally held base at the time of the runner being
declared out.
2. Failure to immediately proceed to the next base, or return to his base, once the pitcher has the ball within the
pitcher's circle, shall result in the runner being declared out.
3. Once the runner returns to a base for any reason, he shall be declared out if he leaves said base.
EXCEPTION – Sec. 9v: A runner shall not be declared out if:
1. A play is made on him or another runner (a fake throw is considered a play), or
2. The pitcher no longer has possession of the ball within the pitcher’s circle, or
3. The pitcher releases the ball by a pitch to the batter.
NOTE: A base on balls, or dropped third strike in which the runner is entitled to run, is treated the same as a batted
ball.
(<=this bold is mine) The batter-runner may continue past first base, and is entitled to run toward second base, as long as he does not
stop at first base. If he stops after he rounds first base, he then must comply with EFFECT – Sec. 9v-2.w. When
he abandons a base and enters his team area, or leaves the field of play, while the ball is alive.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 11:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg43
This happened a couple of years ago but I will never forget it. The pitcher just stood there. This situation was slightly different because our B-R, who was walked, took one step into the field and immediately returned to 1st. No "hard move" was made to 2nd. She was called out as soon as she returned to 1st.
As you write it, sounds as though this may have been a blown call. Did you query the umpire as to why he called it?
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 12:05pm
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I should clarify that the last situation described where the B-R was called out for returning to 1st happened during a tournament game (I think we were using PONY rules). I asked the umpire why she was out and his response was that once she made a turn into the field, she was committed to proceed to 2nd. Ever since then, I have insisted that my players always come to a complete stop on the base after a walk without even the slightest hint of looking into the field.

I'll check the PONY book to see if I can find the rule. I just presumed that this "rule" applied across the board of officiating organizations.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg43
I should clarify that the last situation described where the B-R was called out for returning to 1st happened during a tournament game (I think we were using PONY rules). I asked the umpire why she was out and his response was that once she made a turn into the field, she was committed to proceed to 2nd. Ever since then, I have insisted that my players always come to a complete stop on the base after a walk without even the slightest hint of looking into the field.

I'll check the PONY book to see if I can find the rule. I just presumed that this "rule" applied across the board of officiating organizations.
Pony rules have a pretty generic LBR.

t. Look Back Rule (FP) – The “Look Back” rule will be in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball in the eight foot (2.44m) radius of the pitcher’s plate. The pitcher is considered to be in the eight foot (2.44m) radius of the pitcher’s plate when both feet are on or within the lines. When the baserunner fails to keep contact with the base to which she is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand, the baserunner will be declared out. When a baserunner is legimately off her base after a pitch or the result of a batter completing her turn at bat while the pitcher has the ball with an eight foot (2.44m) radius on the pitcher’s plate, the runner may stop once, but then she must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or immediately return to her base.
(1) Failure to immediately proceed to the next base or return to her base once the pitcher has the ball within the eight foot (2.44m) radius of the pitcher’s plate will result in the baserunner being declared out.
(2) Once the runner returns to a base for any reason, she will be declared out if she leaves said base, unless a play is made on her or another runner (a fake throw is considered a play); the pitcher no longer has possession of the ball in the eight foot (2.44m) radius; or the pitcher releases the ball by a pitch to the batter.
NOTE: A base on balls or dropped third strike, on which the runner is entitled to run, is treated the same as a batted ball. The batter-baserunner may continue past first base and is entitled to run toward second base as long as she does not stop at first base. If she stops after she rounds first, she then must comply with Section 9t(1).
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg43
I asked the umpire why she was out and his response was that once she made a turn into the field, she was committed to proceed to 2nd. Ever since then, I have insisted that my players always come to a complete stop on the base after a walk without even the slightest hint of looking into the field.
I may be off base here, but it sounds like the umpire may have confused this with a player returning to 1B after running through the bag as the batter-runner.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 04:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I may be off base here
And as such, you too are now out!!!
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2006, 04:12pm
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No he's not. Mike is allowed one stop off base, and then must choose which direction to reply in. He can reverse his opinion, but must not make a further stop or reversal after that. Unless one of you guys make a play on him...
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Old Thu Mar 23, 2006, 09:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg43
This happened a couple of years ago but I will never forget it. The pitcher just stood there. This situation was slightly different because our B-R, who was walked, took one step into the field and immediately returned to 1st. No "hard move" was made to 2nd. She was called out as soon as she returned to 1st.
Wow, were you playing in North Manchester, Indiana? I had this exact same call made last year in one of our games. I had a slow runner on third, slow runner drawing a walk and going to first base. Top of the order coming up, so I'm just happy we got our batter on base. Out of nowhere, she's hustling to first base, rounds first, takes two steps towards second, stops and immediately goes back to first base. BU immediately calls her out and says once she rounded first she was required to advance to second. What could I say? I just shook my head and the first opportunity I had I explained to my player that she did nothing wrong.

This was the same umpire who in a different game made a no-call when my shortstop got bowled over by a runner as she was fielding a ground and followed that up in the next inning by calling interference on my fastest runner who on a straight steal had run three steps past the second baseman before the ball went behind her only to be bobbled by said second baseman. He had on an ASA shirt and an ASA cap, but since he was wearing blue jeans with his shirt untucked and only ever took his hands out of his pockets to make safe or out calls, I don't doubt he just ordered his attire online somewhere.

I guess that's why Wayne Myers, our state commissioner, demands that we not order equipment from anywhere other than through him.
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