Last out of inning

[Little Jimmy]

Jel,

Yes. She may not know the semantics but she knows that if she throws the ball back that there's a rule somewhere that will get her a out.

I guess I'm looking at the original scenario to be analogous to this example. Routine grounder to the infield. Overthrow pulls F3 off the base and runner also misses first. Before runner gets back to 1st F3 picks up the ball steps to throw back to pitcher and by chance clips 1st wtih her foot as the ball sails back to F1. Award the appeal even though there was no conscious thought of one?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by Bluefoot
Doesn't anybody read the rule book? (Just kidding)

POE#1 APPEALS
M. Fourth Out Appeal. (2005, page 133) An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly.

The play described in the original post is a proper live ball appeal. (wait, keep reading, same page, but go up to letter...)

J. Force Out. If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out.

So, my conclusion A.) putting these together, the live ball appeal at 1B is allowed as the "fourth", or new third out, and thus the force at 1B neagates the run.

Or is it conclusion B.) Does the third out made by F6 on the runner in the rundown eliminate the force on the BR, and thus, the appeal is no longer a force out, and the run does score?

I go with my "A" conclusion. Run does not score.

Good question and making us think, Mike.

Here is my issue with this play; the appeal has to be done properly. You have pointed out this was done as a live ball appeal, but can we have a live ball appeal after the third out is made? I don't ever recall a libve ball appeal for a fourth out. It strikes me that, after the third out is made, you can only allow a properly made dead ball appeal, and that can't be honored without a verbal appeal.

Thinking out loud, now, in the manner that Henry would now pose; because I considered the appeal aspect before reminding we don't want to refer to a tag play, rather a timing versus force out.

[WestMichBlue]

Where are you guys coming from with an appeal play? There are only 4 conditions in which an umpire cannot rule on a play until requested - and this is not one of them. A tag play (on R2) and a putout at 1B are umpire calls.

Also, a fourth out appeal to negate a run can only be made on the runner that scored. See Rule 5.5.C

Also note Casebook 5.5.7 is similar to Mike's situation - run scores, next runner is tagged for 3rd out, and the B-R is put out at 1B for 4th out. The answer is that R1's run is not nullified which does not agree with Mike's continuous play assertation.

WMB

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
"The rules are very clear that if the 3rd out of an inning is on a tag play , all runs scoring prior to that tag will stand."

Please, let's not open that can of worms. A tag play can still be a force out that keeps a run from scoring. The explanation needs to be that the third out his defense took was a timing play , rather than a force out.

Not really. A "TAG PLAY" is, by common usage, considered to be other than a "FORCE PLAY". A force out may be made by a tag, but is not considered a "Tag Play".

R1..B2 hits ground ball directly to F4, R1 is tagged before reaching 2B. It's a "Force Out" made by a tag.

R2..B2 hits ground ball to F4, R2 attempts to advance to 3B. F4 throws to F5, who applies tag on R2. "Tag Play".

Basically, a "Tag Play" means the runner must be tagged, not the base.

There is a subtle difference.

Bob

[Alameda]

***Hours later, Alameda stumbles back in...***


All I can say is that this is awesome, you guys are incredible, and I cannot believe how much freakin fun this is.

If we could ALL do this under one roof during a couple of rounds, I would gladly buy the first one.

(Ok, maybe not all, what's the age restrictions on being an umpire? lol)

This is one thing that makes me wonder how thourough the manual really is though.

Cause I still stand by my original call.

The run scores.

:P

[debeau]

Keep on talking I am still not convinced the run would not score .
I think you are on the wrong track as to appeals .
The question is
Is the out at ist a force ?
If yes the run doesnt score
If no the run scores .
Now if you hit the ball you are forced to run to ist so I would suppose it is a force .
It doesnt explain this as force in my NZ rule book in definitions .
Who has a ISF rule book that has the definitions .
Convince me .I am now erring to no the run doesnt count but ?

[Alameda]

Originally posted by debeau
I am now erring to no the run doesnt count but ?

Why, in your own words, are you now erring on the side of 'no run'?

I just want to hear it regergitated from a converts point of view.

[debeau]

Because of the force aspect !
No run shall score if the third out is the result of a force .
Like I said I need the definition of a force .

[rhsc]

I dont care what yall say about this sitch anymore..if Im there making this call..no run scores. None of this has convinced me otherwise.


[Edited by rhsc on Apr 10th, 2005 at 03:26 AM]

[debeau]

Come on open up your mind , maybe you will learn something .
Hell Im as you can read I am rethinking my original thoughts.

[rhsc]

Originally posted by debeau
Come on open up your mind , maybe you will learn something .
Hell Im as you can read I am rethinking my original thoughts.

Nope, sounds like you are easily swayed, Im not.

[nzumpire]

Score the run.

The 3rd out in this scenario is the optional (or Fielders Choice) tag play on R2, therefore becomes a timing play.

[nzumpire]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Runners on 2B & 3B, two out.

Ground ball to SS, BR doesn't run. R2 gets hung-up between 2B & 3B and keeps the defense occupied until R1 scores.

BR realizes that he better run in case R2 escapes safely from the run down.

F6 tags R2 and throws to 1B in time to get the BR.

Does the run score?

Where does it state the defence then appealed to nulify a run?

And for that matter since when has a force play at 1st become an appeal play? Now if the BR had missed 1st base and the defence then appealed for that,.... Then we can apply the nulify the run on an additional out.

Why do some umpires go looking for trouble? it will find you fast enough.. ..

[nzumpire]

Since when have you worried about the 4th out once you have three outs in the innings?

Put yourself in the BU position. You have 2 outs, you expect the fielder to throw to 1st for the obvious (no we had better say the easiest) out, however you watch the fielders catch R2 in a rundown and subsequently make the tag on R2, then what - you go looking for another out?

I don't think so.. Do you? No way, you are heading back to the inter-innings baselines just as fast as the fielders are retiring to the dugout. The 4th out is not an appeal play so end of story. Put this one to bed.

:~

[debeau]

rhsc
NoI am not easily swayed I am open to ideas .
Now I am convinced the run does score it is timing .
A closed mind does is a like an anus if you dont open it you will drown in your own sh@@