What's The Call?

[AtlUmpSteve]

As others have eloquently stated, the LBR is, of course, in affect, because the pitcher has the ball in the circle and is not making a play. But, no runner can be declared out under the LBR while standing on a base! In fact, the exact opposite is true; if, after stopping on the base, the runner leaves for any reason, he/she is out. That means if he/she stays, they are SAFE. You cannot selectively infer a required entitlement to that base, or else, as I previously posted, you would be required to call a LBR violation after missed bases or leaving too early on a caught fly ball, etc. You cannot call an out based on 2 runners occupying the same base, as the defense has rejected the required remedy of tagging the runners.

So, HM1 Hammonds asks what rule can allow you to call time and return the runner to 1B. Let me put it back to you! You have 2 runners on 2B, and a runner on 3B. The ball is in the circle, in the possession of the pitcher. The pitcher and the defensive team are not making a play, and it is clear they will not. The offense will NOT step off the base, because, to do so, generates an out. You are the plate umpire, and, by rule, so far, cannot call an out. You also know, you cannot allow the batter to step in the box and the pitcher to pitch with 2 runners on 2B.

Forget for the moment your desire to call an out; that is not an option. What would/could you (HM1, or anyone else) do, other than the remedy stated by others, and as newly stated in the 2005 Case Book?

[Edited by AtlUmpSteve on Mar 28th, 2005 at 11:47 AM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
and as newly stated in the 2005 Case Book?

Actually, it is not that new. This case play is my 2003 Case Book. I haven't checked the earlier ones.

[Ranger23]

Look back rule can not be in effect, the runner at first that is actually at second, may in fact return to 1st with liability to be put out. They do not legaly have a right to second base, that belongs to the runner already standing on second. Therefore they must return to first, the look back rule is not to be used to stop a play in progress. If the runner attempts to return to first they are not to be considered in violation of the LBR. The umpire cannot allow a pitch because the play is not over. Not much of a situation here just let it play out.

[rhsc]

Originally posted by Ranger23
Therefore they must return to first,

Whoa, that sounds too much like your gonna give it to them. Everything Im hereing and trying to understand is(as you later said) let it play out. How long do you wait though, if your not supposed to allow a pitch? I need to know this, itll happen to me this weekend. Can you feel the panic?

[Dakota]

Let's not confuse the LBR being "in effect" with the LBR "stopping play."

Even though some 10U coaches like to think the LBR stops play, it doesn't.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by Ranger23
Look back rule can not be in effect, the runner at first that is actually at second, may in fact return to 1st with liability to be put out. They do not legaly have a right to second base, that belongs to the runner already standing on second. Therefore they must return to first, the look back rule is not to be used to stop a play in progress. If the runner attempts to return to first they are not to be considered in violation of the LBR. The umpire cannot allow a pitch because the play is not over. Not much of a situation here just let it play out.

Where in the lookback rule do you find these exceptions? If the ball is in the pitcher's possession in the circle and no play is made by the pitcher, the LBR is in affect, any runner who has stopped on a base cannot then leave without violating the rule. That is what the rules state as cited previously, so please cite some rules that support your statements.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by rhsc

Whoa, that sounds too much like your gonna give it to them. Everything Im hereing and trying to understand is(as you later said) let it play out. How long do you wait though, if your not supposed to allow a pitch? I need to know this, itll happen to me this weekend. Can you feel the panic?

No need to panic. Speaking ASA, the interpretation is clear. Once the pitcher has the ball in the circle, and in your judgment the defense is not going to make a play on the runner, call TIME and place the runner back on the base she belongs on (1B in this case). If the coach questions your ruling, sound like you know what you just did by saying, "Coach, ASA Case Play 8-8.66 addresses this same situation. I cannot allow a pitch to proceed with two runners on the same base. I cannot call the runner out since the defense declined to make a play. Therefore, I am suspending play and directing the runner back to her base."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by rhsc

Whoa, that sounds too much like your gonna give it to them. Everything Im hereing and trying to understand is(as you later said) let it play out. How long do you wait though, if your not supposed to allow a pitch? I need to know this, itll happen to me this weekend. Can you feel the panic?

As soon as it is clear that the defense will not make any further play, and that the offense will not leave 2B because doing so would violate the LBR, call time. The first time you see this, it may be 10, or 15, or even 20 seconds of inaction, as the parents stupidly scream at the players to do something. If the play is repeated, then you can assume in a shorter period of time that both teams won't make a further play, so no need to keep waiting.

[Ol Blue]

The LBR is in effect, the pitcher is in the circle with control of the ball and is not making a play. LBR is in effect and if off base any runners must do something right now. But since no runners are off base and the pitcher is not making a play and is not going to you have a correctable situation so correct it and move on.

[rhsc]

[/B][/QUOTE]No need to panic. Speaking ASA, the interpretation is clear. Once the pitcher has the ball in the circle, and in your judgment the defense is not going to make a play on the runner, call TIME and place the runner back on the base she belongs on (1B in this case). If the coach questions your ruling, sound like you know what you just did by saying, "Coach, ASA Case Play 8-8.66 addresses this same situation. I cannot allow a pitch to proceed with two runners on the same base. I cannot call the runner out since the defense declined to make a play. Therefore, I am suspending play and directing the runner back to her base." [/B][/QUOTE]
I dont know about the looking like what I just did, but the rest of it I can handle, as long as nobdy cares if I have a printed copy of this post.

[Ranger23]

r3 cannot occupy 2nd base unless r2 gives up second by touching third. Therefore r3 is not entitled to second and must return to first. The play is not over until she does so, or r2 vacates second base, in which case r1 would have to vacate third base. As far as LBR, what is the intent of the rule, the intent is to keep runners from playing chicken with the pitcher and speed up play, that is clearly not what is happening here. I will agree if no one does anything just call time and fix it, but give everyone the opportunity to sort it out first. If the runner leaves second to go back to first, you cannot call her/him out on the LBR because she is trying to fulfill h/her obligation as a baserunner. If you get an argument from this one just use rule 10 section 1.

[mcrowder]

Yes you can (and should) call the runner out if she tries to return to 1B. Regardless of your "trying to fulfill her obligations" comment, which has no support in the rulebook, the runner is violating LBR the second she leaves 2nd base.

[rhsc]

Im just glad I didnt respond when I was told fast-pitch is what you need to do. I aint ready for that yet.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by rhsc
Im just glad I didnt respond when I was told fast-pitch is what you need to do. I aint ready for that yet.

Respond to what? You have 5 posts on this subject already.

[rhsc]

Respond to what? You have 5 posts on this subject already. [/B]

Yeah, but I wasnt resposding to anything fast-pitch related. Its tough to sort out; reading all these different posts (ASA,IFS, and so on)and how they apply.
I just meant the guys here keep telling me that fast-pitch is 'where all the action is' and I dont think Im quite ready for it. Im sure you would agree.