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kicked ball to DBT
Recent discussion on this ASA Rules & Clarification scenario:
Play 2: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded? RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G) The above is from 2009. Our specific point of discussion was that USSSA would only allow an award of 1 base versus 2 bases. With some opinion about a ball that was in the control of the fielder being thrown out of bounds instead of a ball not in control being kicked out of bounds. I don't do USSSA, so can't debate the point. Any U-trip umps in here?
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Ted USA & NFHS Softball |
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Officiating takes more than OJT. It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be. |
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i asked a USSSA UIC and he said "No different in USSSA and NFHS "
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Officiating takes more than OJT. It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be. |
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Accidentally kicking the ball out of play and throwing the ball (player has control) out of play should be ruled differently. USA obviously doesn’t get it among may [sic] other things.
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Ted USA & NFHS Softball Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Tue Mar 17, 2020 at 01:09pm. |
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I found USSSA rules on line. These are the only 1 base awards listed.
D. One base: 1. If a pitch by the pitcher from the pitching position on the pitcher’s plate goes into a dead-ball area, becomes blocked (unless blocked by the offensive team), or lodges in an Umpire’s equipment. 2. If a fielder loses possession of the ball on a tag play and the ball enters dead-ball area. 3. If forced from the base occupied by a following runner who must advance because a batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball or hits a fair ball which becomes dead. 4. If a runner is attempting to steal or the runner is forced from the base occupied by a batter-runner or runner who must advance because the catcher or any fielder obstructed a batter (such as stepping on or across home plate, pushing the batter to reach the pitch, or touching the bat). Instances may occur when the infraction may be ignored or when the batter may be awarded first base. 5. If the fielder unintentionally carries a live ball into dead-ball territory. Maybe our guy remembers #2 above and got it confused. I don't know.
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Ted USA & NFHS Softball |
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Oh, a troll !
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Officiating takes more than OJT. It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be. |
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"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker |
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Ted USA & NFHS Softball |
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FWIW, I believe NCAA would consider this a batted ball deflected into DBT, which is a two-base award at the time of the pitch. There is an NCAA case play that involves a loose pitch which the catcher subsequently kicks into DBT. The ruling is that the ball's status when kicked was that it was still a pitched ball since the catcher never controlled it to throw it, so the award is one base from the pitch. So on this play, the kicked ball would still be considered a batted ball that goes into DBT since it was never controlled by the fielder.
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"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker |
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So why do you think any other rules sets are different? The cited one base award rule, and specifically the highlighted rule, also only reflect a ball that has been controlled/possessed, and subsequently lost without intent.
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Steve ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF |
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I don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the USSSA rulebook.
What I do find interesting is when does the ball change from a deflected ball to a basically being considered a thrown ball that goes out of play? |
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8-14-d
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Officiating takes more than OJT. It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be. |
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My point on the ball going to DBT when a fielder loses control on a tag play is that I think that may be the point of confusion.
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Ted USA & NFHS Softball |
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I still feel this should be treated as a deflected batted ball that goes into DBT. The fielder never possessed it, it was still considered a batted ball since he/she never had it in his/her possession, and he/she unintentionally deflected it.
Unless there's a specific case play saying that when a defensive player provides additional impetus to a ball that causes it to go into DBT where it otherwise would not have, treat it as a "thrown" ball, then we can't just make up that ruling. This is the NCAA case play I mentioned above. Quote:
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"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker |
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