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Tru_in_Blu Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:45am

kicked ball to DBT
 
Recent discussion on this ASA Rules & Clarification scenario:

Play 2: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

The above is from 2009.

Our specific point of discussion was that USSSA would only allow an award of 1 base versus 2 bases. With some opinion about a ball that was in the control of the fielder being thrown out of bounds instead of a ball not in control being kicked out of bounds.

I don't do USSSA, so can't debate the point. Any U-trip umps in here?

CecilOne Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1038287)
Recent discussion on this ASA Rules & Clarification scenario:

Play 2: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

The above is from 2009.

Our specific point of discussion was that USSSA would only allow an award of 1 base versus 2 bases. With some opinion about a ball that was in the control of the fielder being thrown out of bounds instead of a ball not in control being kicked out of bounds.

I don't do USSSA, so can't debate the point. Any U-trip umps in here?

What is there different in the USSSA rules which is being cited by the other(s) ?

CecilOne Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1038287)
Recent discussion on this ASA Rules & Clarification scenario:

Play 2: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

The above is from 2009.

Our specific point of discussion was that USSSA would only allow an award of 1 base versus 2 bases. With some opinion about a ball that was in the control of the fielder being thrown out of bounds instead of a ball not in control being kicked out of bounds.

I don't do USSSA, so can't debate the point. Any U-trip umps in here?


i asked a USSSA UIC and he said "No different in USSSA and NFHS "

Tru_in_Blu Tue Mar 17, 2020 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 1038288)
What is there different in the USSSA rules which is being cited by the other(s) ?

He don't need no steenkin' citations. He sez:

Accidentally kicking the ball out of play and throwing the ball (player has control) out of play should be ruled differently. USA obviously doesn’t get it among may [sic] other things.

Tru_in_Blu Tue Mar 17, 2020 01:20pm

I found USSSA rules on line. These are the only 1 base awards listed.

D. One base:
1. If a pitch by the pitcher from the pitching position on the pitcher’s
plate goes into a dead-ball area, becomes blocked (unless blocked by
the offensive team), or lodges in an Umpire’s equipment.
2. If a fielder loses possession of the ball on a tag play and the ball
enters dead-ball area.
3. If forced from the base occupied by a following runner who must
advance because a batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball
or hits a fair ball which becomes dead.
4. If a runner is attempting to steal or the runner is forced from the base
occupied by a batter-runner or runner who must advance because the
catcher or any fielder obstructed a batter (such as stepping on or
across home plate, pushing the batter to reach the pitch, or touching
the bat). Instances may occur when the infraction may be ignored or
when the batter may be awarded first base.
5. If the fielder unintentionally carries a live ball into dead-ball territory.

Maybe our guy remembers #2 above and got it confused. I don't know.

CecilOne Tue Mar 17, 2020 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1038293)
He don't need no steenkin' citations. He sez:

Accidentally kicking the ball out of play and throwing the ball (player has control) out of play should be ruled differently. USA obviously doesn’t get it among may [sic] other things.

Oh, a troll ! :D :D :rolleyes:

Manny A Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1038294)
I found USSSA rules on line. These are the only 1 base awards listed.

D. One base:
1. If a pitch by the pitcher from the pitching position on the pitcher’s
plate goes into a dead-ball area, becomes blocked (unless blocked by
the offensive team), or lodges in an Umpire’s equipment.
2. If a fielder loses possession of the ball on a tag play and the ball enters dead-ball area.
3. If forced from the base occupied by a following runner who must
advance because a batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball
or hits a fair ball which becomes dead.
4. If a runner is attempting to steal or the runner is forced from the base
occupied by a batter-runner or runner who must advance because the
catcher or any fielder obstructed a batter (such as stepping on or
across home plate, pushing the batter to reach the pitch, or touching
the bat). Instances may occur when the infraction may be ignored or
when the batter may be awarded first base.
5. If the fielder unintentionally carries a live ball into dead-ball territory.

Maybe our guy remembers #2 above and got it confused. I don't know.

I don't know what the USSSA rule says for the award, but NFHS says here that the award would be one base from the moment the ball enters that dead-ball area, not the moment the fielder lost possession. Is the USSSA award the same, one base from when it goes out of play?

Tru_in_Blu Wed Mar 18, 2020 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 1038296)
I don't know what the USSSA rule says for the award, but NFHS says here that the award would be one base from the moment the ball enters that dead-ball area, not the moment the fielder lost possession. Is the USSSA award the same, one base from when it goes out of play?

Manny, are you replying the the section you highlighted in red, or the scenario in the OP?

Manny A Wed Mar 18, 2020 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1038297)
Manny, are you replying the the section you highlighted in red, or the scenario in the OP?

I was really just asking about the one-base award in general. I thought it was you, but looking back, it was CecilOne who said that a U-Trip UIC told him that the ruling was the same in both USSSA and NFHS. Since I don't umpire U-Trip, I was curious if the one-base award in USSSA was from the time the ball entered DBT, which would align with NFHS. Or would it be from the time the ball left the fielder's glove, which would make it different than NFHS.

FWIW, I believe NCAA would consider this a batted ball deflected into DBT, which is a two-base award at the time of the pitch. There is an NCAA case play that involves a loose pitch which the catcher subsequently kicks into DBT. The ruling is that the ball's status when kicked was that it was still a pitched ball since the catcher never controlled it to throw it, so the award is one base from the pitch. So on this play, the kicked ball would still be considered a batted ball that goes into DBT since it was never controlled by the fielder.

AtlUmpSteve Wed Mar 18, 2020 02:33pm

So why do you think any other rules sets are different? The cited one base award rule, and specifically the highlighted rule, also only reflect a ball that has been controlled/possessed, and subsequently lost without intent.

chapmaja Sun Mar 22, 2020 06:04pm

I don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the USSSA rulebook.

What I do find interesting is when does the ball change from a deflected ball to a basically being considered a thrown ball that goes out of play?

CecilOne Sun Mar 22, 2020 07:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1038315)
i don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the usssa rulebook.

8-14-d

Tru_in_Blu Sun Mar 22, 2020 08:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1038315)
I don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the USSSA rulebook.

That's exactly why I posted the 1-base awards - it's not included there.

My point on the ball going to DBT when a fielder loses control on a tag play is that I think that may be the point of confusion.

Manny A Mon Mar 23, 2020 08:15am

I still feel this should be treated as a deflected batted ball that goes into DBT. The fielder never possessed it, it was still considered a batted ball since he/she never had it in his/her possession, and he/she unintentionally deflected it.

Unless there's a specific case play saying that when a defensive player provides additional impetus to a ball that causes it to go into DBT where it otherwise would not have, treat it as a "thrown" ball, then we can't just make up that ruling.

This is the NCAA case play I mentioned above.

Quote:

A.R. 9-40. A pitched ball is rolling on the ground as the catcher, while trying to retrieve it, accidently [sic] kicks the ball into dugout. Is it still a pitch with only a one base award? Does it matter if the pitch is no longer is moving when there’s contact with the catcher?
RULING: It is considered a pitch until it becomes a batted ball or is thrown by the catcher. The award to base runners would be one base and it does not matter if the ball, at the time of the contact with the catcher, was moving or stationary.
(Rule 9.11)


chapmaja Mon Mar 23, 2020 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 1038325)
I still feel this should be treated as a deflected batted ball that goes into DBT. The fielder never possessed it, it was still considered a batted ball since he/she never had it in his/her possession, and he/she unintentionally deflected it.

Unless there's a specific case play saying that when a defensive player provides additional impetus to a ball that causes it to go into DBT where it otherwise would not have, treat it as a "thrown" ball, then we can't just make up that ruling.

This is the NCAA case play I mentioned above.

I was going to post something on this as well, but wasn't sure on the fact when she went to pick it up it was kicked out of play. That second impetus is what makes it a challenging play.


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