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Old Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:31pm
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2019 Appeal Exam Question

Bottom of the 7th inning, score is tied with 1 out and R1 is on 3B, R2 is on 2B and R3 is on 1B. B5 hits a fly ball over F9ís head scoring R1 from
3B. Thinking the game is over, R2 and R3 do not advance and touch their respective bases and B5 does not touch 1B. Instead they join in
celebrating with team members at home plate. F1 standing near the pitching plate makes a verbal appeal to the base umpire that B5 did not
touch 1B and the base umpire calls B5 out. Then F4 appeals that R3 did not touch 2B and the base umpire calls R3 out. The correct ruling is:


I'm not sure if this question is going after when the ball becomes dead at the end of the game or not. (So as to whether we can accept a dead ball appeal.) And that's maybe an interesting discussion. But let's just say that the ball becomes dead. If so, I'm a little torn about calling R3 out for missing second. She didn't pass it so she's not assumed to have touched it and she's not forced there if you accept the appeal at first. Abandonment doesn't apply as the runners are still in live ball territory.

The correct answer on the test (eliminating the three that must necessarily be wrong) suggests that this is a proper dead ball appeal, but I'm lost on it. Thoughts?
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Old Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:57pm
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If there is one out, and two successful appeals, now we have 3 outs.

Per (Assuming NCAA, because it's that season) 7.1.1.2.7, if a base runner forced to advance misses the base, the appeal is a force out. If she is not forced, it's a timing play. We all know a run cannot score on a pitch where the 3rd out is made via force.

Appeal outs are made in the order in which they are appealed. The appeal on B5 (and the 2nd out call) came first. Maybe this is a little rulebook lawyering, but I'm pretty sure that this removes the force appeal on the runners, as the BR is out.

The second appeal is then a timing play and we go to rule 6.2. Whether the ball is live "sitting in the outfield as the offense celebrates" or dead due to the "winning" run scoring and ending the game, the only conclusion that I can reach is that the run by R1 scores, and the game is indeed over, no matter whether R3 is out or not.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2019, 09:54am
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Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
If there is one out, and two successful appeals, now we have 3 outs.

Per (Assuming NCAA, because it's that season) 7.1.1.2.7, if a base runner forced to advance misses the base, the appeal is a force out. If she is not forced, it's a timing play. We all know a run cannot score on a pitch where the 3rd out is made via force.

Appeal outs are made in the order in which they are appealed. The appeal on B5 (and the 2nd out call) came first. Maybe this is a little rulebook lawyering, but I'm pretty sure that this removes the force appeal on the runners, as the BR is out.

The second appeal is then a timing play and we go to rule 6.2. Whether the ball is live "sitting in the outfield as the offense celebrates" or dead due to the "winning" run scoring and ending the game, the only conclusion that I can reach is that the run by R1 scores, and the game is indeed over, no matter whether R3 is out or not.
I agree with you that once B5 is called out there's no way to take the run off the board.
The test question is from USA.

But the NCAA language creates the same problem. The runner did not miss the base. She abandoned her baserunning responsibilities.

Let's just change this test question and take it deeply into dream land. Both teams had lost track of the inning and it's only the bottom of the 6th. The "winning" (go-ahead) run comes in to score. The players from the bases come in to celebrate with her touching home plate. No one appeals anything. The chaos settles with both teams heading to their dugouts. Do those runs score (the runner from first just missed 2nd and 3rd) or do we have abandonment and call them out when they get into the dugout in which case no appeal would be necessary and the order they enter the dugout would decide whether the first run scored?

To put it another way, there are two things I'm struggling with in this question. How does the ball become dead for a dead ball appeal and second how does one appeal that a runner ran from first to home instead of first to second?
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:40pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I agree with you that once B5 is called out there's no way to take the run off the board.
The test question is from USA.

But the NCAA language creates the same problem. The runner did not miss the base. She abandoned her baserunning responsibilities.

Let's just change this test question and take it deeply into dream land. Both teams had lost track of the inning and it's only the bottom of the 6th. The "winning" (go-ahead) run comes in to score. The players from the bases come in to celebrate with her touching home plate. No one appeals anything. The chaos settles with both teams heading to their dugouts. Do those runs score (the runner from first just missed 2nd and 3rd) or do we have abandonment and call them out when they get into the dugout in which case no appeal would be necessary and the order they enter the dugout would decide whether the first run scored?

To put it another way, there are two things I'm struggling with in this question. How does the ball become dead for a dead ball appeal and second how does one appeal that a runner ran from first to home instead of first to second?
Sorry, just finished the NCAA test so that was on my mind...the due date is this weekend. I haven't had my USA meeting for the year yet, so that code isn't on my mind.

Your two questions are good. I'll have to dig out my USA books and see what I find.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2019, 10:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
The test question is from USA.

Let's just change this test question and take it deeply into dream land. Both teams had lost track of the inning and it's only the bottom of the 6th. The "winning" (go-ahead) run comes in to score. The players from the bases come in to celebrate with her touching home plate. No one appeals anything. The chaos settles with both teams heading to their dugouts. Do those runs score (the runner from first just missed 2nd and 3rd) or do we have abandonment and call them out when they get into the dugout in which case no appeal would be necessary and the order they enter the dugout would decide whether the first run scored?

To put it another way, there are two things I'm struggling with in this question. How does the ball become dead for a dead ball appeal and second how does one appeal that a runner ran from first to home instead of first to second?
First off, the scenario is a little far fetched to me in that both teams would unlikely mistake the inning. Maybe in a timed game where some assumptions had been made?

I don't do NCAA, so can't speak to that. From USA/NFHS perspective, in the first part, I would likely confer with a partner regarding abandonment. In the crush of players, it might be very confusing to determine which of the runners from second or first base or the BR entered the dugout area in which order. I would likely rule R2 and R3 out for abandonment while R1's run would count.

In the second part, who said the ball ever becomes dead? If the defense is aware enough and makes live ball appeals in the proper order, the run could be taken off the board. I still have a live ball waiting for somebody to do something. If nobody does anything except enter the dugouts, I've got the abandonment call(s).

Closest thing I had to this was a HS freshman game. With 1 out and a runner on third, the batter hit a fly ball to the outfield. The offensive coach was coaching third base and thought there were 2 outs. When the ball was hit, she was yelling at the runner at third to go home. The runner thought (correctly) that there was only 1 out and was planning to tag up. But the coach confused her, she dawdled between third and home. When the catch was made, the coach, thinking it was the third out simply ran off the field to the first base dugout. Her confused runner followed, not touching the plate. When the runner entered the dugout, we called her out for abandonment. Had she touched the plate, we would have had to wait for an appeal, because she never did tag up properly.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2019, 11:13pm
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[QUOTE=True_in_Blue

In the second part, who said the ball ever becomes dead? [/QUOTE]

The answer that is accepted on the exam is that "this is a correct dead ball appeal". So I have the same question as youngump, "How does the ball become dead?" Knowing that some runners, especially the BR, had not advanced ot their base, I would have left the ball "live" and not made a call on dead ball appeals, since we were in a live ball situation. But the test gives credit for the dead ball appeal answer.

So in the words of youngump, How does the ball become dead in this situation?
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2019, 07:28am
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Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
The answer that is accepted on the exam is that "this is a correct dead ball appeal". So I have the same question as youngump, "How does the ball become dead?" Knowing that some runners, especially the BR, had not advanced ot their base, I would have left the ball "live" and not made a call on dead ball appeals, since we were in a live ball situation. But the test gives credit for the dead ball appeal answer.

So in the words of youngump, How does the ball become dead in this situation?
I will have to partially retract my previous thought. For a live ball appeal, a player must have the ball in their possession and tag a base or a runner. Once a fielder without possession of the ball makes an appeal on a base missed or left too early, the umpire would then rule but only after time out had been called.

See RS#1, B & C.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2019, 10:20am
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
First off, the scenario is a little far fetched to me in that both teams would unlikely mistake the inning. Maybe in a timed game where some assumptions had been made?
I could think of no way to try and make it a legitimate play that wasn't absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
From USA/NFHS perspective, in the first part, I would likely confer with a partner regarding abandonment. In the crush of players, it might be very confusing to determine which of the runners from second or first base or the BR entered the dugout area in which order. I would likely rule R2 and R3 out for abandonment while R1's run would count.
That would depend on the order of the abandonment, no? So you'd have to guess and this is what you'd be focused on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
In the second part, who said the ball ever becomes dead? If the defense is aware enough and makes live ball appeals in the proper order, the run could be taken off the board. I still have a live ball waiting for somebody to do something. If nobody does anything except enter the dugouts, I've got the abandonment call(s).
One thing I've convinced myself of thinking through this one (the end of game one, not that dreamland play) is that if the ball isn't dead then they can't appeal and since no one has left live ball territory, there is no abandonment. So I think ideally, we're just leaving the ball live here and waiting for something to happen. There are two force outs available. And maybe that's it we just wait until the offense leaves the field; though if the home team is planning to have a celebration and a barbecue post game in the outfield we could be stuck there a long time. (I don't think the entire defense leaving the park even changes anything from this perspective.) Does this create a rather weird situation where you couldn't coach them and the entire defense could leave, then get the outs and then forfeit for having left?

But suppose the ball becomes inadvertently dead; F1 wants to appeal and she wants to make dead ball appeals so she asks for time. Your partner grants it much to your chagrin. Now the ball is dead. You can't give the defense the chance to appeal until the offense has had sufficient time, but I think we can cede that they already had it and accept the appeals. But again, I'm stuck on what you're appealing. Not running the bases is not one of the listed types of appeals. And neither the BR nor the runner at first ever got remotely close to missing a base. They just didn't run the bases.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2019, 02:31pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
One thing I've convinced myself of thinking through this one (the end of game one, not that dreamland play) is that if the ball isn't dead then they can't appeal and since no one has left live ball territory, there is no abandonment. So I think ideally, we're just leaving the ball live here and waiting for something to happen. There are two force outs available. And maybe that's it we just wait until the offense leaves the field; though if the home team is planning to have a celebration and a barbecue post game in the outfield we could be stuck there a long time. (I don't think the entire defense leaving the park even changes anything from this perspective.) Does this create a rather weird situation where you couldn't coach them and the entire defense could leave, then get the outs and then forfeit for having left?

But suppose the ball becomes inadvertently dead; F1 wants to appeal and she wants to make dead ball appeals so she asks for time. Your partner grants it much to your chagrin. Now the ball is dead. You can't give the defense the chance to appeal until the offense has had sufficient time, but I think we can cede that they already had it and accept the appeals. But again, I'm stuck on what you're appealing. Not running the bases is not one of the listed types of appeals. And neither the BR nor the runner at first ever got remotely close to missing a base. They just didn't run the bases.
In my experience, when fielders (or even coaches now in USA) want to make an appeal, they aren't astute enough to ask for time first. Reading RS#1, a live ball appeal requires a player to have the ball in their possession.

But if the runners and BR are celebrating at home, I will assume they've been given time to fulfill their base running duties. Then, if a fielder without the ball says they want to appeal, we would call time out and rule on the appeal.

For the runner at first, she went home without touching second (or third) and can be ruled out for missing a base. The BR who never reached first, can be ruled out for missing first.

And the order in which the appeals are made would impact whether the run would score or not.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2019, 06:46pm
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
For the runner at first, she went home without touching second (or third) and can be ruled out for missing a base. The BR who never reached first, can be ruled out for missing first.
My hangup is that there's no way that the runner at first "missed" second and third. If you believe that then you'd have to be willing to say that they scored.

Let's say this is a tournament where score differential will determine seeding.
And there is also a runner on second who does the same dumb trick. The defense gets the ball and appeals that the batter runner missed first. So you now have two outs. Then they say the runner from second missed third so you have 3 outs. Most of the defense is already off the field and as soon as you call the third out the last defenders run off.
The scorekeeper then asks you if the run counts. Are you seriously going to tell her that it does, and ALSO the runner from first who came in to celebrate scores so the home team wins by 2?

I'm not, she has to touch all 4 bases or approximate it well enough to be considered to have missed the base to score a run. She's guilty of abandonment not finding a shortcut to scoring.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2019, 10:30pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
My hangup is that there's no way that the runner at first "missed" second and third. If you believe that then you'd have to be willing to say that they scored.

OKAY, that's your hangup. Perhaps without a proper appeal, in some situations, the run might count.

Let's say this is a tournament where score differential will determine seeding.

Irrelevant - I don't care.

And there is also a runner on second who does the same dumb trick. The defense gets the ball and appeals that the batter runner missed first. So you now have two outs.

Good so far. Now force plays at the other bases are eliminated.

Then they say the runner from second missed third so you have 3 outs.

OKAY so far.

Most of the defense is already off the field and as soon as you call the third out the last defenders run off.

At this point, the runner from third has scored the winning run. The game is over.

The scorekeeper then asks you if the run counts. Are you seriously going to tell her that it does,

Yes, seriously.

and ALSO the runner from first who came in to celebrate scores so the home team wins by 2?

As stated above, once the runner from third scored, the game is over.

I'm not, she has to touch all 4 bases

That part is true.

or approximate it well enough

Here's where I'll need a citation, please.

to be considered to have missed the base to score a run. She's guilty of abandonment not finding a shortcut to scoring.
This is still a bit TWP to me, but whatever. If players didn't think it was the end of the game, there wouldn't be a celebration around home plate. Now given the TWPishness of this scenario, if this happened in an inning other than the bottom of the 7th (would be strange in and of itself) and the runner from first base managed to step on home plate, would the run count? It probably has to, despite the approximating you've described. To fix it, how about a 4th out appeal? TWPs all around!
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2019, 10:37pm
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Bottom 7th, home team at bat trailing by a run.

Bases loaded, batter hits an over the fence home run. Home team wins by 3 runs.

Bases loaded, batter hits a gap shot to the outfield that has no fence. Runners score from third and second. Home team wins by 1 run.

Once the winning run crosses the plate, the game is over.

I'm sure some score keeping parent will log the gap shot as a grand slam with 4 RBIs, but I don't think it's right.
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Old Fri Feb 15, 2019, 11:21pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
Bottom of the 7th inning, score is tied with 1 out and R1 is on 3B, R2 is on 2B and R3 is on 1B. B5 hits a fly ball over F9’s head scoring R1 from
3B. Thinking the game is over, R2 and R3 do not advance and touch their respective bases and B5 does not touch 1B. Instead they join in
celebrating with team members at home plate. F1 standing near the pitching plate makes a verbal appeal to the base umpire that B5 did not
touch 1B and the base umpire calls B5 out. Then F4 appeals that R3 did not touch 2B and the base umpire calls R3 out. The correct ruling is:
I've actually had this play...as a player. I was the catcher, but it was bases loaded with no outs in the bottom of the 7th.

Batter drilled one to the base of the fence about 300' away. R1 scored and when I saw the rest of the runners start celebrating instead of advancing to their respective base, I turned to the PU and said, "Don't go anywhere" and started walking toward 3B. F7 was starting to head in and I told him to go get the ball. He did and tossed it to me. I touched 3B, hustled over to 2B and my right fielder (also an umpire) realized what I was doing and ran to 1B and caught my throw while the other team just realized what was going on.

Umpire made all three out calls and told the team to take the field for the 8th inning. Boy, they were not happy, but their coach actually realized what his team did and told his team to hustle out.

It really isn't a difficult or hard-to-understand rule. However, as far as the improper order of the appeals in the OP, should IMO negate other force outs and should allow the run.
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Fri Feb 15, 2019 at 11:28pm.
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Old Sat Feb 16, 2019, 08:38am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I've actually had this play...as a player. I was the catcher, but it was bases loaded with no outs in the bottom of the 7th.

Batter drilled one to the base of the fence about 300' away. R1 scored and when I saw the rest of the runners start celebrating instead of advancing to their respective base, I turned to the PU and said, "Don't go anywhere" and started walking toward 3B. F7 was starting to head in and I told him to go get the ball. He did and tossed it to me. I touched 3B, hustled over to 2B and my right fielder (also an umpire) realized what I was doing and ran to 1B and caught my throw while the other team just realized what was going on.

Umpire made all three out calls and told the team to take the field for the 8th inning. Boy, they were not happy, but their coach actually realized what his team did and told his team to hustle out.

It really isn't a difficult or hard-to-understand rule. However, as far as the improper order of the appeals in the OP, should IMO negate other force outs and should allow the run.
A triple play on appeal! That was probably a once in 5 lifetimes event.
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Old Sat Feb 16, 2019, 09:10pm
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A triple play on appeal! That was probably a once in 5 lifetimes event.
I wanted to do it unassisted, but I was afraid they would catch on before I could get to first. Besides, I had one of those in the early 70s when playing in a base league
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