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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 05:08pm
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Ohio High School State Title Game - OBS Call

Game ends on OBS call.

Does high school softball have the same rule as baseball regarding OBS i.e. runner is automatically protected to the next base?

If you watch the 3rd base coach you will see him pointing at the defender and then you see the 3rd base umpire come in.

I ask if it's the same b/c the coach was quoted as saying they called the runner safe because of how close the play was at the plate i.e. it was a judgment call.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxADnrPqjpI
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 05:16pm
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No the rule is not the same. In softball an obstructed runner may not be put out between the 2 bases where the obstruction occurred. At the end of playing action, the obstructed runner and any other runners affected by the obstruction should be awarded the base or bases they would have reached in the umpires judgement. That could be the base behind them, it could be one or more bases in front of them.

I saw some discussions on this play in another forum, the obstruction happens at 3rd off screen so have no idea what happened there. The base umpire called the obstruction and after the runner was put out approached and told the plate umpire they had obstruction. Apparently the calling umpires determination was the runner would have reached home absent the obstruction and awarded home. The call was correct based on the umpires judgement.

Last edited by RKBUmp; Sun Jun 04, 2017 at 05:28pm.
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 06:26pm
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The obstruction happens off screen at 0:13-0:14. At 0:16, you can clearly see the U3 signalling delayed dead ball.

At the time of the obstruction, the ball was near in the backstop in F2's possession. The runner then became caught in a rundown, during which she was tagged out at home. I was not there, but from this video my judgment is that the runner would not have reached home absent the obstruction. I would not have awarded home; I would have returned the runner to 3B.

Side question: Runners must touch all awarded bases. I lost the runner in the visual confusion after the OBS call was made and home was awarded.

In a play like this, must the runner re-touch home after the OBS award, or does the touch during the play count? I suspect the touch during the play does not count, because per rule, when a play is made on an obstructed runner that would result in an out, the ball is immediately dead.
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Last edited by teebob21; Sun Jun 04, 2017 at 06:33pm.
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 06:49pm
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Not sure how you can make that determination from the video. 3rd base is completely out of view for an extended period of time and we have absolutely no idea how much contact there was or how much the runner was delayed. When the video comes back to the runner she is at least 1/3 of the way or more to home plate. I would have to defer to the umpires on site ruling since they are the ones that had a full view of the play.

As for touching the plate, she did touch the plate and then crawled around on top of it as she was getting up. I know of no rule requirement or case play indicating the runner must retouch the plate again after the award is made.
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 06:54pm
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Teebob:

Since the calling umpire judged home, it really isn't our place (IMO) to do much more than talk about the process. Especially where we cannot even see the obstruction, so even more difficult to judge if what she should be awarded. His call, his award.

To your question:

If you are willing to accept what the runner does/did AFTER the award (during a dead ball), why would you not accept what the runner did before the announced award (and during the same dead ball period)? To my way thinking, the runner did complete all baserunning responsibilities, whether before or after.
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 08:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Teebob:

Since the calling umpire judged home, it really isn't our place (IMO) to do much more than talk about the process. Especially where we cannot even see the obstruction, so even more difficult to judge if what she should be awarded. His call, his award.
I agree...and that's why I talked through the play as I saw it as shown on video. I didn't comment on the quality of the judgment call, I only stated what judgment call I would have made from what I could see in the video. U3 has much better angle AND distance on the call than I do from behind my keyboard 1000 miles away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
To your question:

If you are willing to accept what the runner does/did AFTER the award (during a dead ball), why would you not accept what the runner did before the announced award (and during the same dead ball period)? To my way thinking, the runner did complete all baserunning responsibilities, whether before or after.
Fair enough. The actual rulebook verbiage is "Awarded bases must be ran legally", which IMO implies touching in order after an award. I re-watched it and she does touch after the play. When I posted, I was thinking at that time she is just a retired runner...but since the calling official had already determined he was going to award home, I can agree with the interpretation that she ran the awarded base legally.
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 09:08pm
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From my perspective, I agree they followed the correct process and discussed the obstruction relative to the tag at home plate. But I think there is enough evidence to support those who say she should have been put back at 3rd and not awarded home.

Definitely we can not see what happened at 3rd. But even if she was knocked to the ground, based on what i did see, i would not give her home. The reason is that the catcher was standing not very far from home plate with possession of the ball. Had that runner tried to advance home, i judge that the catcher would have beat her to the plate and tagged her out. Thus I would have put her back on third anyway, no matter what reason the obstruction was called.

She was also standing flat footed 1/3 of the way down the line and did not run home until the defender dropped the throw. But that is less important because we can't see the obstruction event or know why she was stopped 1/3 down the line. But what helped my decision is the position of the catcher. I dont think she's making it safely to the plate. And of course this is all hindsight with the help of video replay.
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Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 09:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
I agree...and that's why I talked through the play as I saw it as shown on video. I didn't comment on the quality of the judgment call, I only stated what judgment call I would have made from what I could see in the video. U3 has much better angle AND distance on the call than I do from behind my keyboard 1000 miles away.
I tend to agree with you. The play started with runners at first and second. The runner from first was lying on the ground when she reached second safely, and then F4 threw the ball wild to home. Unless that runner was Flash Gordon, it's extremely improbable that she would have gone from her position on the ground at second to home safely had there been no obstruction. F4's throw was made at 0:09 in the video, and the catcher recovered the wild throw and made it back near home plate at 0:15. That's six seconds starting from her being on the ground. The better speeds going from second to home on a base hit are from 5.3 to 5.5 seconds at the D1 college level. I think she should have been returned to third base.
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Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 08:29am
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Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
From my perspective, I agree they followed the correct process and discussed the obstruction relative to the tag at home plate. But I think there is enough evidence to support those who say she should have been put back at 3rd and not awarded home.

Definitely we can not see what happened at 3rd. But even if she was knocked to the ground, based on what i did see, i would not give her home. The reason is that the catcher was standing not very far from home plate with possession of the ball. Had that runner tried to advance home, i judge that the catcher would have beat her to the plate and tagged her out. Thus I would have put her back on third anyway, no matter what reason the obstruction was called.

She was also standing flat footed 1/3 of the way down the line and did not run home until the defender dropped the throw. But that is less important because we can't see the obstruction event or know why she was stopped 1/3 down the line. But what helped my decision is the position of the catcher. I dont think she's making it safely to the plate. And of course this is all hindsight with the help of video replay.
IMJ, and unless there is a local "must award one base beyond" rule, the OBS runner was not OBS going home unless she had to alter her route around the player standing near the line.

Then again, was 3rd base occupied by the BR/R at the time of the out at the plate?
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Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 10:59am
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The plate umpire on this one is my USA assigner. I'll probably get a first hand account when I see him this weekend.

From what I've heard so far, the obstruction was when the runner was first rounding third base and the fielder was standing over in foul territory. None of that is captured in this video.

Last edited by BretMan; Mon Jun 05, 2017 at 11:04am.
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Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 11:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
IMJ, and unless there is a local "must award one base beyond" rule, the OBS runner was not OBS going home unless she had to alter her route around the player standing near the line.

Then again, was 3rd base occupied by the BR/R at the time of the out at the plate?
If the BR/R was at third base, she would just go back to second base once the obstructed runner is returned to third. You wouldn't award her home if she wouldn't have reached home minus the obstruction just because third is occupied.
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Old Tue Jun 06, 2017, 09:23am
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
If the BR/R was at third base, she would just go back to second base once the obstructed runner is returned to third. You wouldn't award her home if she wouldn't have reached home minus the obstruction just because third is occupied.
Okay, but why not? You push a non-affected runner ahead if the umpire judges an OBS runner was due the base already occupied?
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Old Wed Jun 07, 2017, 05:23pm
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Just found another video of the play from the 3rd base side showing the full obstruction. Runner was knocked completely to the ground, but tje catcher and ball not in view in this video so have no idea exactly where they were in relation to the runner when she was sprawled out on the ground.

OHSAA 2017 State Championship Ending Play - JwPhotography and Cinevations
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Old Wed Jun 07, 2017, 05:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
Just found another video of the play from the 3rd base side showing the full obstruction. Runner was knocked completely to the ground, but tje catcher and ball not in view in this video so have no idea exactly where they were in relation to the runner when she was sprawled out on the ground.

OHSAA 2017 State Championship Ending Play - JwPhotography and Cinevations
Good find. If I was a video wizard, I'd stitch the videos together for a splitscreen view. I have no comment beyond that, other than the parents screaming "Interference! Interference!" (sigh)
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Last edited by teebob21; Wed Jun 07, 2017 at 05:32pm.
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Old Wed Jun 07, 2017, 07:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
Just found another video of the play from the 3rd base side showing the full obstruction. Runner was knocked completely to the ground, but tje catcher and ball not in view in this video so have no idea exactly where they were in relation to the runner when she was sprawled out on the ground.

OHSAA 2017 State Championship Ending Play - JwPhotography and Cinevations

Obviously OBS, and an excellent job by the crew in that situation to make absolutely sure everyone had the same call, even though 3B had it all the way. Tough way to lose a championship. however...
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