Need help on a call in high school basketball game

[joelk22311]

Wondering if anyone knows the rules on this play.

Last night in a high school game in Phoenix.

Orange team is up by 3 and gets fouled. They are at 9 team fouls and the foul that happens puts them at 10 but the refs and the official score table miss that. The kid on the orange team shoots a 1 and 1 instead of 2. He misses it and the Green team gets the rebound.

There are 32 seconds left. Green team goes down the court works for a shot, drive in and get a two shot foul called on Orange team with 9 seconds left. Kid on green team is at the line ready to shoot when the scorers table calls the refs over. After a lengthy discussion they decide to let the kid on the Orange team go back to the other end of the court to take one more foul shot. He happened to be the kid who fouled against the green team on the other end and that was his 5th so in a way he has already fouled out.

The kid on the Orange team makes his free throw and they are now up by 4. He leaves the court as he is fouled out.

My question or comment is....isn't that a non reversable call on missing the 2 shot foul vs the 1 on 1 foul once the action goes down the court and another call is made. (green team shooting a 2 shot foul)

Green team is lined up to shoot their 2 free throws...stop action....let the orange kid who has fouled out go back down the court and make his 1 shot then take it back to the other end for the green teams 2 shots.

End of the story is that green made 1st missed second and time ran out. Green lost by 3.

Can anyone give insight on the rules about reversing calls and when it is too late??? I am the assistant coach and we argued it was too late but????

[loners4me]

2.10.1

[JeroenB]

I have no idea what NFHS rules say about this, I can only chime in from a FIBA basketball perspective:
Under FIBA rules a correctable error can be corrected as long as it's discovered "before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball after the game clock has started following the error." (i.e. when the ball is at the disposal of the green FT-shooter). If by "ready to shoot" you mean the kid already had the ball at his/her disposal, you were right, it was too late and the call couldn't be reversed anymore.
If he was just standing ready at the FT-line and did not yet have the ball, the call could still be reversed. In this case the orange kid that fouled out would have to remain on the bench and his substitute would have to shoot the free throws.
Again: this is based on FIBA rules and FIBA does not have a 1-and-1 rule, however any erroneously awarded or denied free throws fall under the correctable error category.

[Adam]

The only thing they did wrong was allow the disqualified player to shoot his second free throw. His sub should have shot it.

[Adam]

For the record, cotrectable errors suck, but your head coach would have had a better chance of convincing them to have the sub shoot, as most of us know the time limit on this has not expired. Once he went that route, they likely stopped listening to him.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by joelk22311

Can anyone give insight on the rules about reversing calls and when it is too late??? I am the assistant coach and we argued it was too late but????

Resepctfully, perhaps you can give us some insight. Why do coaches not know the rules in situations like this but assume the officials got it wrong? I mean truthfully, do coaches have a rule book they can reference when things like this arise?

Originally Posted by JeroenB

I have no idea what NFHS rules say about this, I can only chime in from a FIBA basketball perspective:

With all due respect, why even respond since this is an NFHS game, especially since your ruling could be incorrect in this case? Rules for different orgainizations vary in certain situations. When it's obvious that a game is played under a specific set of rules, what's the point in offering a different rules code ruling.

Maybe someone will come along and give us the NBA ruling as well as their local rec league decision as well.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Maybe someone will come along and give us the NBA ruling as well as their local rec league decision as well.

Those leagues have rules?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

With all due respect, why even respond since this is an NFHS game, especially since your ruling would be incorrect in this case? Rules for different organizations vary in certain situations. When it's obvious that a game is played under a specific set of rules, what's the point in offering a different rules code ruling.

Maybe someone will come along and give us the NBA ruling as well as their local rec league decision as well.

Maybe, just maybe, this situation might occur in a FIBA game and there are FIBA officials reading who want to know how they should handle it?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Maybe, just maybe, this situation might occur in a FIBA game and there are FIBA officials reading who want to know how they should handle it?

Great but that wasn't the premise presented.

IMO, when a coach comes here with a question, the answer should be the one that specifically addresses his play, which would include the proper sanctioning body ruling. But that's just me.

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by loners4me

2.10.1

I don't think the OP has a casebook or a rules book for that matter.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by joelk22311

Wondering if anyone knows the rules on this play.

Last night in a high school game in Phoenix.

Orange team is up by 3 and gets fouled. They are at 9 team fouls and the foul that happens puts them at 10 but the refs and the official score table miss that. The kid on the orange team shoots a 1 and 1 instead of 2. He misses it and the Green team gets the rebound.

There are 32 seconds left. Green team goes down the court works for a shot, drive in and get a two shot foul called on Orange team with 9 seconds left. Kid on green team is at the line ready to shoot when the scorers table calls the refs over. After a lengthy discussion they decide to let the kid on the Orange team go back to the other end of the court to take one more foul shot. He happened to be the kid who fouled against the green team on the other end and that was his 5th so in a way he has already fouled out.

The kid on the Orange team makes his free throw and they are now up by 4. He leaves the court as he is fouled out.

My question or comment is....isn't that a non reversable call on missing the 2 shot foul vs the 1 on 1 foul once the action goes down the court and another call is made. (green team shooting a 2 shot foul)

Green team is lined up to shoot their 2 free throws...stop action....let the orange kid who has fouled out go back down the court and make his 1 shot then take it back to the other end for the green teams 2 shots.

End of the story is that green made 1st missed second and time ran out. Green lost by 3.

Can anyone give insight on the rules about reversing calls and when it is too late??? I am the assistant coach and we argued it was too late but????

Question: When you say the player on the Green team was "ready to shoot" does that mean he had the ball in his hands or that it was otherwise at his disposal? If that was the case then it was too late for Orange to receive its unmerited free throw because that would have been the second live ball after the clock had started.

Otherwise the situation was handled correctly other than, as was mentioned earlier, allowing the disqualified player from Orange to take the unmerited free throw. His substitute should have taken the remaining free throw.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

I don't think the OP has a casebook or a rules book for that matter.

+1 considering it was also his first post

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by joelk22311

Kid on green team is at the line ready to shoot when the scorers table calls the refs over.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Question: When you say the player on the Green team was "ready to shoot" does that mean he had the ball in his hands or that it was otherwise at his disposal? If that was the case then it was too late for Orange to receive its unmerited free throw because that would have been the second live ball after the clock had started.

Nice catch, JMF.

Joel, if you get an NFHS rule book, take a look at Rule 2, Section 10, Article 2. This will pinpoint when the window of opportunity closes on a correctable error. (So does Article 3, but that doesn't apply here.) In your case, as long as Green didn't have the ball in his hands ("at his disposal") for his free throw, then the window is still open. As JMF pointed out, once Green has the ball, the ball is live after the first dead ball after the clock started, and the window is closed.

For my own curiosity, though, you had teams wearing green and orange. Didn't anyone wear white?

[BillyMac]

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Question: When you say the player on the Green team was "ready to shoot" does that mean he had the ball in his hands or that it was otherwise at his disposal? If that was the case then it was too late for Orange to receive its unmerited free throw because that would have been the second live ball after the clock had started.

Otherwise the situation was handled correctly other than, as was mentioned earlier, allowing the disqualified player from Orange to take the unmerited free throw. His substitute should have taken the remaining free throw.

Dang, you caught it and beat me to it. It is too late if the ball is at the disposal of the free throw shooter on the next foul.