BR: Out or Safe?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by teebob21

When does a BR stop being a BR? The definition says that happens when they are put out or reach 1B.

If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as passing it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation.

However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun. The "first" overrun isn't a legal overrun, and thus never happened. We cannot assume the runner touches the base when he passes it in this case. RS #1-L (Appeals) explains why: We assume the BR to have touched 1B when he passes it before the ball arrives for the purposes of the judgment call on the "force" out. (I know this is not technically a force, but work with me). That is not the case. The ball beat the runner, but the throw was errant. For the purposes of the missed base, I don't think this is any different than any other missed base that happens right in front of us, which means a proper live-ball appeal needs to happen.

I think the relevant softball rules (speaking ASA) are 8-7-A, -G, -H, and -I, plus 8-8-I.

The runner is out when:
A: A runner runs more than three feet from their base path to avoid a tag. No, not out. (Interesting side note, if a B/R is not a runner, can the B/R legally deviate 3+ feet to avoid a tag? Common sense says no, but good luck finding a rule.)
G: A runner fails to touch a base (yes) and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed (no, not from what I see in the video). No, not out.
H: A batter-runner legally overruns first base (defined in 8-8-1 as touching, so no as RS #1 tells us when to assume the BR "touched" on passing), attempts to run to second base (no), and is legally touched with the ball while off the base. No, not out.
I: When running or sliding for any base and the runner fails to touch it, provided the defense properly appeals. I didn't see a proper appeal, just a tag attempt. No, not out.

So he's not out before he finally touches the base. What about after? Well, the applicable rule is already listed above, 8-7-H. The runner, after touching the base and overrunning, did not attempt to advance to second before he was legally tagged. The former batter-runner is not out.

I see it a bit differently.

The BR legally avoided a tag at ~7 sec point of the video, and overran and missed the base at ~ 8 sec point, and returned to touch the base before being tagged (assuming this was a legal live ball appeal) at ~9 sec.

At this point, the BR has overrun the base and returned to touch the base.

Everything after that is just a runner losing contact with the base and being tagged, twice, actually. The first tag was at ~9.5 on the foot; the second was at ~14 sec on the right leg.

Suppose there was no play being made, and a batter-runner made a little circle around 1B, reached down and touched the bag from the right field side, and then stepped back and just stood there, slowly shuffling toward the base. Would you consider the runner to be protected as a BR who has overrun 1B? I think the answer to that is, essentially, where you and I would disagree.

I see the overrun as his first time past the bag; you see this as a circuitous route to the bag where the touch is the first time past the bag.