BR: Out or Safe?

[Andy]

This was originally posted in the Facebook Softball umpires group and the almost unanimous opinion was an out. I brought up the issue of the allowance for the batter-runner to run through first base without liability to be out absent an attempt to second base.

I haven't yet been able to find or stretch a rule that says that after a BR overruns first then returns, they have to stay there.

This may a good one to kick up the chain.....

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

This was originally posted in the Facebook Softball umpires group and the almost unanimous opinion was an out. I brought up the issue of the allowance for the batter-runner to run through first base without liability to be out absent an attempt to second base.

I haven't yet been able to find or stretch a rule that says that after a BR overruns first then returns, they have to stay there.

This may a good one to kick up the chain.....

You can't (safely) overrun first base twice because the second time you overrun it you are a runner not a batter-runner and only the BR is entitled to overrun first.
See the definition of BR and 8-8-I.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by youngump

You can't (safely) overrun first base twice because the second time you overrun it you are a runner not a batter-runner and only the BR is entitled to overrun first.

See the definition of BR and 8-8-I.

I think hits the nail on the head

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by youngump

You can't (safely) overrun first base twice because the second time you overrun it you are a runner not a batter-runner and only the BR is entitled to overrun first.
See the definition of BR and 8-8-I.

When does a BR stop being a BR? The definition says that happens when they are put out or reach 1B.

If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation.

However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun. The "first" overrun isn't a legal overrun, and thus never happened. We cannot assume the runner touches the base when he passes it in this case. RS #1-L (Appeals) explains why: We assume the BR to have touched 1B when he passes it before the ball arrives for the purposes of the judgment call on the "force" out. (I know this is not technically a force, but work with me). That is not the case. The ball beat the runner, but the throw was errant. For the purposes of the missed base, I don't think this is any different than any other missed base that happens right in front of us, which means a proper live-ball appeal needs to happen.

I think the relevant softball rules (speaking ASA) are 8-7-A, -G, -H, and -I, plus 8-8-I.

The runner is out when:
A: A runner runs more than three feet from their base path to avoid a tag. No, not out. (Interesting side note, if a B/R is not a runner, can the B/R legally deviate 3+ feet to avoid a tag? Common sense says no, but good luck finding a rule.)
G: A runner fails to touch a base (yes) and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed (no, not from what I see in the video). No, not out.
H: A batter-runner legally overruns first base (defined in 8-8-1 as touching, so no as RS #1 tells us when to assume the BR "touched" on passing), attempts to run to second base (no), and is legally touched with the ball while off the base. No, not out.
I: When running or sliding for any base and the runner fails to touch it, provided the defense properly appeals. I didn't see a proper appeal, just a tag attempt. No, not out.

So he's not out before he finally touches the base. What about after? Well, the applicable rule is already listed above, 8-7-H. The runner, after touching the base and overrunning, did not attempt to advance to second before he was legally tagged. The former batter-runner is not out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by teebob21

When does a BR stop being a BR? The definition says that happens when they are put out or reach 1B.

If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as passing it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation.

However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun. The "first" overrun isn't a legal overrun, and thus never happened. We cannot assume the runner touches the base when he passes it in this case. RS #1-L (Appeals) explains why: We assume the BR to have touched 1B when he passes it before the ball arrives for the purposes of the judgment call on the "force" out. (I know this is not technically a force, but work with me). That is not the case. The ball beat the runner, but the throw was errant. For the purposes of the missed base, I don't think this is any different than any other missed base that happens right in front of us, which means a proper live-ball appeal needs to happen.

I think the relevant softball rules (speaking ASA) are 8-7-A, -G, -H, and -I, plus 8-8-I.

The runner is out when:
A: A runner runs more than three feet from their base path to avoid a tag. No, not out. (Interesting side note, if a B/R is not a runner, can the B/R legally deviate 3+ feet to avoid a tag? Common sense says no, but good luck finding a rule.)
G: A runner fails to touch a base (yes) and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed (no, not from what I see in the video). No, not out.
H: A batter-runner legally overruns first base (defined in 8-8-1 as touching, so no as RS #1 tells us when to assume the BR "touched" on passing), attempts to run to second base (no), and is legally touched with the ball while off the base. No, not out.
I: When running or sliding for any base and the runner fails to touch it, provided the defense properly appeals. I didn't see a proper appeal, just a tag attempt. No, not out.

So he's not out before he finally touches the base. What about after? Well, the applicable rule is already listed above, 8-7-H. The runner, after touching the base and overrunning, did not attempt to advance to second before he was legally tagged. The former batter-runner is not out.

I see it a bit differently.

The BR legally avoided a tag at ~7 sec point of the video, and overran and missed the base at ~ 8 sec point, and returned to touch the base before being tagged (assuming this was a legal live ball appeal) at ~9 sec.

At this point, the BR has overrun the base and returned to touch the base.

Everything after that is just a runner losing contact with the base and being tagged, twice, actually. The first tag was at ~9.5 on the foot; the second was at ~14 sec on the right leg.

Suppose there was no play being made, and a batter-runner made a little circle around 1B, reached down and touched the bag from the right field side, and then stepped back and just stood there, slowly shuffling toward the base. Would you consider the runner to be protected as a BR who has overrun 1B? I think the answer to that is, essentially, where you and I would disagree.

I see the overrun as his first time past the bag; you see this as a circuitous route to the bag where the touch is the first time past the bag.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I see it a bit differently.

The BR legally avoided a tag at ~7 sec point of the video, and overran and missed the base at ~ 8 sec point, and returned to touch the base before being tagged (assuming this was a legal live ball appeal) at ~9 sec.

At this point, the BR has overrun the base and returned to touch the base.

....snip...

Suppose there was no play being made, and a batter-runner made a little circle around 1B, reached down and touched the bag from the right field side, and then stepped back and just stood there, slowly shuffling toward the base. Would you consider the runner to be protected as a BR who has overrun 1B? I think the answer to that is, essentially, where you and I would disagree.

I see the overrun as his first time past the bag; you see this as a circuitous route to the bag where the touch is the first time past the bag.

I enjoy discussing differences of judgment and opinion like this, which is why I posted the play. I would agree with your whole interpretation if I thought the runner overran the base at 0:08. In your circuitous BR example, yes, I would judge his step back towards right field as a legally protected overrun. I don't have rule support to do otherwise, and 8-7-T (look back rule) covers what the BR may or may not do after moving toward right field.

Under ASA, 8-8-I says the runner is not out if he overruns first base after touching it. It is clear he does not touch it. I am interested in any other rule citations that say we should judge this an overrun. It could change my entire perspective on this play.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I enjoy discussing differences of judgment and opinion like this, which is why I posted the play. I would agree with your whole interpretation if I thought the runner overran the base at 0:08. In your circuitous BR example, yes, I would judge his step back towards right field as a legally protected overrun. I don't have rule support to do otherwise, and 8-7-T (look back rule) covers what the BR may or may not do after moving toward right field.

Under ASA, 8-8-I says the runner is not out if he overruns first base after touching it. It is clear he does not touch it. I am interested in any other rule citations that say we should judge this an overrun. It could change my entire perspective on this play.

Yeah, I like to discuss these kinds of plays, too, and having a real video to look at helps overcome our usual limitations with verbal descriptions.

I doubt you will find a rule to clarify things, since I don't believe "overrun" is defined in the book.

I'm just basing it on "did the runner pass the base or not"?

If the runner passed the base, he must have either overrun or rounded.

If circling around the base by a few feet and coming back at it from the other side is not passing the base, how long of a circle around does it have to be before is does become passing the base?

BTW, it does seem like the MLB umpire agrees with your judgment on this...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Under ASA, 8-8-I says the runner is not out if he overruns first base after touching it. It is clear he does not touch it. I am interested in any other rule citations that say we should judge this an overrun. It could change my entire perspective on this play.

So you mentioned the lookback rule. Are you really trying to argue that if the pitcher has the ball and the BR overruns first and misses it then turns right they can go to second? Or maybe the lookback rule doesn't apply at all?


Here's another one. Runner rounds first and misses the bag on the way. She gets to second coach yells at her to hustle back. She runs back to first and doesn't hold the bag and is tagged out. Are you saying that's an overrun? If not why not?


Going just one further though, speaking just softball and not baseball this video is at best an overslide not an overrun and there is no oversliding first exception in ASA as there is in OBR.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by youngump

So you mentioned the lookback rule. Are you really trying to argue that if the pitcher has the ball and the BR overruns first and misses it then turns right they can go to second? Or maybe the lookback rule doesn't apply at all?


Here's another one. Runner rounds first and misses the bag on the way. She gets to second coach yells at her to hustle back. She runs back to first and doesn't hold the bag and is tagged out. Are you saying that's an overrun? If not why not?


Going just one further though, speaking just softball and not baseball this video is at best an overslide not an overrun and there is no oversliding first exception in ASA as there is in OBR.

The ball is dead and the batter-runner is out. 8-7-T-3-C-5. I was simply pointing out that other rules specify the actions that an over-running batter-runner may or may not do.

The player is no longer entitled to overrun protection as she has attempted to advance to 2B. The runner is out as a live-ball appeal for the missed base if they tagged her before the retouch of 1B, out as an overslide if off the bag. 8-7-H, 8-7-B

The current ASA rule book is a bit ambiguous whether "slides beyond or loses contact with a base" requires a slide. My oldest still-all-in-one piece book is 2005 and back then there was overslide protection. No longer relevant except to point out that the old wording referred specifically to sliding. There is no use of the word overslide (that I can find) in the rest of the book. If this is not an overrun under 8-8-I, then OK, this could be an overslide out under 8-7-B. I am still curious how we can adjudge the batter-runner overrunning 1B without a touch as spelled out in 8-8-I, though.

Per the other comment that 8-8-I doesn't define overrunning, that's the rule that the index sends me to when I lookup Overrunning First Base. Also RS#37.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

When does a BR stop being a BR? The definition says that happens when they are put out or reach 1B.

If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation.

It requires not intentionally stretching it too far. The BR, the guy going to first can overrun first. Once he does he isn't a BR anymore. But the overrun protection keeps applying to him until he gets back or goes to second (or doesn't return directly.)

Originally Posted by teebob21

However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun.

8-8-I doesn't define overrunning nor does it require the BR to touch anything. What it does is says that the BR is not out if they overrun first after touching it. The touching is required to get the protection not to be considered overrunning.