BR: Out or Safe?

[teebob21]

Relevant video: Cron's slick move to reach base | MLB.com

Bear with me. Pretend it's softball. Is the BR out or safe?

I have the BR safe, but I need to get some rule cites handy.

[CecilOne]

Did a tag occur before the BR touched the base? Looks like no.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Relevant video: Cron's slick move to reach base | MLB.com

Bear with me. Pretend it's softball. Is the BR out or safe?

I have the BR safe, but I need to get some rule cites handy.

My initial take. He passed first toward second returned to correct his baserunning mistake and then left the bag. At that point he was tagged, he should have been out. Any ruleset either sport.

Then I dove into the rulebook. A couple of thoughts from that pass. Oversliding first is not legal in ASA. I would have missed that on the field if it had ever happened. Second, overrunning is not defined in the book so I guess you could decide that was this, but on the I know it when I see it theory this isn't overrunning.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

My initial take. He passed first toward second returned to correct his baserunning mistake and then left the bag. At that point he was tagged, he should have been out. Any ruleset either sport.

Then I dove into the rulebook. A couple of thoughts from that pass. Oversliding first is not legal in ASA. I would have missed that on the field if it had ever happened. Second, overrunning is not defined in the book so I guess you could decide that was this, but on the I know it when I see it theory this isn't overrunning.

I see no attempt for 2nd. A runner can take any path to the base they want.
As long as not over 3 feet from original avoiding a tag. Might have been 3, but not in my judgment.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I see no attempt for 2nd. A runner can take any path to the base they want.
As long as not over 3 feet from original avoiding a tag. Might have been 3, but not in my judgment.

Not in mine either. I didn't say he made an attempt for second I said he passed 1st toward second. If there was a runner standing on first you'd have called him out for passing that runner, no?
But a runner can't take any path they want to 1B and still be considered over running the bag. Consider for example, U3K, runner gets to the 1B dugout opening but not in when the coach tells her to run. The opening is in a line with 1st and 2nd. The runner can't overrun at all from that angle. I'm not inclined to let a runner overrun it along that same line going the other way either.

[Dakota]

My breakdown of this:

The BR overran the base but did not touch it; he returned and touched before he was tagged, (the tag would be an appeal anyway, so even if the tag was before the touch, there would have to be someting indicating an appeal).

But, then the BR lost contact with the base after returning, so on the second tag, out.

I get the point about any ol' direction on the overrun, but this is close enough to be an overrun (the first time) IMO. Besides, technically, the BR loses his protection for an try for 2nd, not for a somewhat curved overrun path.

But, in the end the BR is out on the second tag.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I get the point about any ol' direction on the overrun, but this is close enough to be an overrun (the first time) IMO..

I think I agree with this. But I also don't think it matters. Is there any situation where overrunning and missing is different from not overrunning and missing?

[Little Jimmy]

After watching the video quite a few times, it seems like this would be treated like any overrun where the runner misses the bag then returns (in this case the touch of the hand) and then steps off the bag and is tagged. What if the runner would have simply missed the bag with no close play, followed by a live ball appeal, a slide back into 1st that beats the tag or touch, then a roll off the bag, then another tag? I've got an out in that scenario and I believe in the video also.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Relevant video: Cron's slick move to reach base | MLB.com

Bear with me. Pretend it's softball. Is the BR out or safe?

I have the BR safe, but I need to get some rule cites handy.

I would have an out on this play. The initial play was a move out of the way of the base, which resulted in the runner passing first base. Now this is up for an appeal. He returns to the base and touches the bases, which removes the appeal for a missed base. He however has returned to the base and an touched it. A player may over run the base provided they immediately return and touch the base, which he has done. Now that he has returned, the protections of over running the base are removed. He then loses contact with the base and is tagged, thus OUT.

[BlueDevilRef]

For the reasons stated in the above two posts, which I could not figure out how to state last night when I first read this, count me as having an out as well. My feeling is I would have an out real time bc that was my initial reaction to the video. Something about him touching with hand and being off bag and tagged seemed off.

[Andy]

This was originally posted in the Facebook Softball umpires group and the almost unanimous opinion was an out. I brought up the issue of the allowance for the batter-runner to run through first base without liability to be out absent an attempt to second base.

I haven't yet been able to find or stretch a rule that says that after a BR overruns first then returns, they have to stay there.

This may a good one to kick up the chain.....

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

This was originally posted in the Facebook Softball umpires group and the almost unanimous opinion was an out. I brought up the issue of the allowance for the batter-runner to run through first base without liability to be out absent an attempt to second base.

I haven't yet been able to find or stretch a rule that says that after a BR overruns first then returns, they have to stay there.

This may a good one to kick up the chain.....

You can't (safely) overrun first base twice because the second time you overrun it you are a runner not a batter-runner and only the BR is entitled to overrun first.
See the definition of BR and 8-8-I.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by youngump

You can't (safely) overrun first base twice because the second time you overrun it you are a runner not a batter-runner and only the BR is entitled to overrun first.

See the definition of BR and 8-8-I.

I think hits the nail on the head

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by youngump

You can't (safely) overrun first base twice because the second time you overrun it you are a runner not a batter-runner and only the BR is entitled to overrun first.
See the definition of BR and 8-8-I.

When does a BR stop being a BR? The definition says that happens when they are put out or reach 1B.

If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation.

However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun. The "first" overrun isn't a legal overrun, and thus never happened. We cannot assume the runner touches the base when he passes it in this case. RS #1-L (Appeals) explains why: We assume the BR to have touched 1B when he passes it before the ball arrives for the purposes of the judgment call on the "force" out. (I know this is not technically a force, but work with me). That is not the case. The ball beat the runner, but the throw was errant. For the purposes of the missed base, I don't think this is any different than any other missed base that happens right in front of us, which means a proper live-ball appeal needs to happen.

I think the relevant softball rules (speaking ASA) are 8-7-A, -G, -H, and -I, plus 8-8-I.

The runner is out when:
A: A runner runs more than three feet from their base path to avoid a tag. No, not out. (Interesting side note, if a B/R is not a runner, can the B/R legally deviate 3+ feet to avoid a tag? Common sense says no, but good luck finding a rule.)
G: A runner fails to touch a base (yes) and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed (no, not from what I see in the video). No, not out.
H: A batter-runner legally overruns first base (defined in 8-8-1 as touching, so no as RS #1 tells us when to assume the BR "touched" on passing), attempts to run to second base (no), and is legally touched with the ball while off the base. No, not out.
I: When running or sliding for any base and the runner fails to touch it, provided the defense properly appeals. I didn't see a proper appeal, just a tag attempt. No, not out.

So he's not out before he finally touches the base. What about after? Well, the applicable rule is already listed above, 8-7-H. The runner, after touching the base and overrunning, did not attempt to advance to second before he was legally tagged. The former batter-runner is not out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by teebob21

When does a BR stop being a BR? The definition says that happens when they are put out or reach 1B.

If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as passing it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation.

However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun. The "first" overrun isn't a legal overrun, and thus never happened. We cannot assume the runner touches the base when he passes it in this case. RS #1-L (Appeals) explains why: We assume the BR to have touched 1B when he passes it before the ball arrives for the purposes of the judgment call on the "force" out. (I know this is not technically a force, but work with me). That is not the case. The ball beat the runner, but the throw was errant. For the purposes of the missed base, I don't think this is any different than any other missed base that happens right in front of us, which means a proper live-ball appeal needs to happen.

I think the relevant softball rules (speaking ASA) are 8-7-A, -G, -H, and -I, plus 8-8-I.

The runner is out when:
A: A runner runs more than three feet from their base path to avoid a tag. No, not out. (Interesting side note, if a B/R is not a runner, can the B/R legally deviate 3+ feet to avoid a tag? Common sense says no, but good luck finding a rule.)
G: A runner fails to touch a base (yes) and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed (no, not from what I see in the video). No, not out.
H: A batter-runner legally overruns first base (defined in 8-8-1 as touching, so no as RS #1 tells us when to assume the BR "touched" on passing), attempts to run to second base (no), and is legally touched with the ball while off the base. No, not out.
I: When running or sliding for any base and the runner fails to touch it, provided the defense properly appeals. I didn't see a proper appeal, just a tag attempt. No, not out.

So he's not out before he finally touches the base. What about after? Well, the applicable rule is already listed above, 8-7-H. The runner, after touching the base and overrunning, did not attempt to advance to second before he was legally tagged. The former batter-runner is not out.

I see it a bit differently.

The BR legally avoided a tag at ~7 sec point of the video, and overran and missed the base at ~ 8 sec point, and returned to touch the base before being tagged (assuming this was a legal live ball appeal) at ~9 sec.

At this point, the BR has overrun the base and returned to touch the base.

Everything after that is just a runner losing contact with the base and being tagged, twice, actually. The first tag was at ~9.5 on the foot; the second was at ~14 sec on the right leg.

Suppose there was no play being made, and a batter-runner made a little circle around 1B, reached down and touched the bag from the right field side, and then stepped back and just stood there, slowly shuffling toward the base. Would you consider the runner to be protected as a BR who has overrun 1B? I think the answer to that is, essentially, where you and I would disagree.

I see the overrun as his first time past the bag; you see this as a circuitous route to the bag where the touch is the first time past the bag.