Out then safe then out...

[MatthewPV]

Situation (major league rules): 2 outs. ground ball to 2nd. Overthrown to first. Runner attempts to advance to 2nd. Slides and umpire calls the runner out. End of inning...but the umpire finally sees that the ball is on the ground. In the meantime the runner has taken 3-4 steps toward dugout. Umpire then declares runner safe. Fielder then tags stranded runner then umpire calls him out. My question is...are there any rules that the umpire messed up? It was suggested that the arguement could be made that the ball automatically becomes dead when the 3rd out is declared, and after the umpire sees his mistake he can award the runner second base. Any help would be helpful. Thanks!

[Steven Tyler]

Sounds like the umpire put the runner in jeopardy with a case of horrible timing.

Put the runner back on 2B.

[tjones1]

Agree - put runner back on 2nd and play on.

[txump81]

I would agree with Steven. Since the umpire stopped play with the 3rd out, the runner should keep 2B. Like an inadvertent whistle or TIME call.

[MatthewPV]

Are there any rule references that I could use to argue that the ball is dead based on the fact it was the 3rd out?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MatthewPV

Are there any rule references that I could use to argue that the ball is dead based on the fact it was the 3rd out?

No. After all, the defense could still appeal another runner (in a different play) after the third out is made.

[MatthewPV]

So this would be "unprotestable" since the umpire didn't mess up a rule? Would there be anything anyone could to protest his actions?

[Rich Ives]

MLBUM 4.12

Umpire error.

Fix it.

If an umpire's error such as a missed count or number of outs clearly affects the play, every attempt should be made to correct the error, if possible.

Play: Runner on first base is stealing with a 3-1 count on the batter. The next pitch is called ball four, but the catcher throws the ball to second base anyway, and the runner is tagged before reaching the base. Umpire erroneously calls the runner out, and the runner, believing he is out,
steps off the bag and is again tagged by the fielder.

Ruling: The runner left second base under the assumption that the runner was out; however, the out was declared as a result of umpire error. In this situation the runner should be returned to second base. This is a correctable umpire error.

[BK47]

I agree, that is Umpire error which is correctable. Poor timing leads to this. I was once told this bit of advice "If you think your timing is to slow, Slow down some more."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BK47

I was once told this bit of advice "If you think your timing is to slow, Slow down some more."

Bad advice, IMO. Proper timing is neither too fast nor too slow.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Bad advice, IMO. Proper timing is neither too fast nor too slow.

I believe that BK47 is saying (and me adding to this from the perspective of a young basketball official) is that for someone without lots of experience, what one perceives as slow, is probably still fast. Eventually experience allows for one to understand proper timing, but the instinct when beginning officiating is wanting to make a call right away, when in reality, there is plenty of time to wait and decide what the correct call is.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I believe that BK47 is saying (and me adding to this from the perspective of a young basketball official) is that for someone without lots of experience, what one perceives as slow, is probably still fast. Eventually experience allows for one to understand proper timing, but the instinct when beginning officiating is wanting to make a call right away, when in reality, there is plenty of time to wait and decide what the correct call is.

You might be right about what he meant, and I certainly agree with what you've written about novice officials.

Unfortunately, that's not what his slogan says, which is one of many reasons not to instruct with slogans.

[MD Longhorn]

The ball is not dead when an umpire calls the 3rd out. Other things can still happen. However, the rules provide for the umpire to rectify a situation that occurred because of a mistaken call by the umpires.

[jkumpire]

BU who missed this call should be forced to buy lots of rootbeers for his partner after the game, plus after the next two contests.