Deceitful act or great play?

[Blueplate]

NFHS
R1 on 3rd base....She is moving on the pitch..Ball is pitched and returned to F1,who quickly attempts a pick off of R1 who is diving back to bag. F6 who is on 3rd base jumps straight up as if the throw is high,and giving the appearance of an over throw.

R1 thinking there was an over throw, gets up and heads to home...but F1 still has the ball hidden in her glove and tags out R1.

Great play or..
A) Deceitful tactic
B) Unsporting act or behavior not in the accordance with the spirit of fair play.

[teebob21]

IMO that's a legal play. Deception during a live ball is not forbidden.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Blueplate

NFHS
R1 on 3rd base....She is moving on the pitch..Ball is pitched and returned to F1,who quickly attempts a pick off of R1 who is diving back to bag. F6 who is on 3rd base jumps straight up as if the throw is high,and giving the appearance of an over throw.

R1 thinking there was an over throw, gets up and heads to home...but F1 still has the ball hidden in her glove and tags out R1.

Great play or..
A) Deceitful tactic
B) Unsporting act or behavior not in the accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Blue Plate:

Why would you think that this play was anything other that a great play.

MTD, Sr.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Blueplate

NFHS
R1 on 3rd base....She is moving on the pitch..Ball is pitched and returned to F1,who quickly attempts a pick off of R1 who is diving back to bag. F6 who is on 3rd base jumps straight up as if the throw is high,and giving the appearance of an over throw.

R1 thinking there was an over throw, gets up and heads to home...but F1 still has the ball hidden in her glove and tags out R1.

Great play or..
A) Deceitful tactic
B) Unsporting act or behavior not in the accordance with the spirit of fair play.

I do think this is not in the spirit of fair play, however it is also a great play given the nature of the world we live in today.

How would I rule in a game? R1 is out and R1's coach needs to do a better job coaching at 3rd base. I put the blame on this right on the coach. A coach needs to know where the ball is and instruct the players what to do based on the information he/she has available to her that the runner does not have. If the coach says stay and the runner goes anyway, that's on the runner for not listening to the coach.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I do think this is not in the spirit of fair play, however it is also a great play given the nature of the world we live in today.

How would I rule in a game? R1 is out and R1's coach needs to do a better job coaching at 3rd base. I put the blame on this right on the coach. A coach needs to know where the ball is and instruct the players what to do based on the information he/she has available to her that the runner does not have. If the coach says stay and the runner goes anyway, that's on the runner for not listening to the coach.

Chapmaja:

So you are saying that "The Hidden Ball Play" is not in the Spirit of Fair Play?

The OP is no different that the "Skunk in the grass" play.

MTD, Sr.

[Blueplate]

I agree...but..

NFHS rules states on page 39, Rule 3.6.13...and I quote
"Unsporting acts shall not be committed,including, but not limited to":

b)" .....Deceitful tactics, or baiting....."

c) Behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Blueplate

I agree...but..

NFHS rules states on page 39, Rule 3.6.13...and I quote
"Unsporting acts shall not be committed,including, but not limited to":

b)" .....Deceitful tactics, or baiting....."

c) Behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Blue Plate:

I just have two things to say:

1) Have you never seen a baseball team pull the "skunk in the grass" play?

2) Don't go looking for problems where there are no problems to be found. Because NFHS Softball Rule R3-S6-A13 (use hyphens when referring to the Rules Book and periods when referring to Casebook Plays) has nothing to do with the play we are discussing.

MTD, Sr.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Blueplate

NFHS
R1 on 3rd base....She is moving on the pitch..Ball is pitched and returned to F1,who quickly attempts a pick off of R1 who is diving back to bag. F6 who is on 3rd base jumps straight up as if the throw is high,and giving the appearance of an over throw.

R1 thinking there was an over throw, gets up and heads to home...but F1 still has the ball hidden in her glove and tags out R1.

Great play or..
A) Deceitful tactic
B) Unsporting act or behavior not in the accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Are you asking if this is analogous to a fake tag or if it is hindering or confusing the runner?

[jmkupka]

No more deceitful than the runner starting to return to 3B, then breaking for home on the throw from F2 to F1...

[AtlUmpSteve]

There used to be (not sure if still exists) a case play ruling that drew the line. It referred to a play like this, but in that play, the defense had left a ball along the fence/dead ball line (whether in or out was immaterial), so that runner and coach saw what looked like an overthrown ball.

The ruling specified that the use of the ball as a prop was over-the-line between legitimate trickery and unsporting deceitfulness. Otherwise, the play was to be ruled as legal.

General trickery is legal; otherwise we would have to address fake throws, changeups, and even fadeaway slides. Fake tags are illegal as unsafe and too likely to create an injury.

The line to be used is way farther to the right than this play.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Chapmaja:

So you are saying that "The Hidden Ball Play" is not in the Spirit of Fair Play?

The OP is no different that the "Skunk in the grass" play.

MTD, Sr.

What is the "skunk in the grass" play?

[Blueplate]

Then if trickery is allowed,what if....

R1 on 3rd R2 on 1st..

Shortstop is playing almost behind pitcher.. Ball is pitched out to batter..R2 is going on the pitch..catcher comes up firing but does not release the ball..SS tags R2..R2 thinking she was tagged stops...R1 believing there was a throw heads to home where she is tagged by the catcher who then throws to 1st who then tags R2.

Deceitful play..NFHS says you cannot fag a tag. So this deceitful play is not allowed. NFHS rules do not mention that other deceitful plays are legal.

It does state,however, that any deceitful play or any play that is not in the spirit of fair play is unsportsmanlike conduct. Don't see how you could rule any other way. If the hidden ball trick is not a deceitful play...then what would you call it???

What about in football the old fumble-rooski..?????

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Blueplate

Then if trickery is allowed,what if....

R1 on 3rd R2 on 1st..

Shortstop is playing almost behind pitcher.. Ball is pitched out to batter..R2 is going on the pitch..catcher comes up firing but does not release the ball..SS tags R2..R2 thinking she was tagged stops...R1 believing there was a throw heads to home where she is tagged by the catcher who then throws to 1st who then tags R2.

Deceitful play..NFHS says you cannot fag a tag. So this deceitful play is not allowed. NFHS rules do not mention that other deceitful plays are legal.

It does state,however, that any deceitful play or any play that is not in the spirit of fair play is unsportsmanlike conduct. Don't see how you could rule any other way. If the hidden ball trick is not a deceitful play...then what would you call it???

What about in football the old fumble-rooski..?????

Ruling on this play:

R1 is out; hate that for you running on a fake throw. R2 has been obstructed on the fake tag and awarded 2nd base (could not have failed to advance since no play was made.

Dear Lord, are you ruling it deceitful if they throw to 2nd on this play, but F4 cuts it off and makes a play on R1?

Fumblerooski, if run properly, IS a legal play in football.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Blueplate

Then if trickery is allowed,what if....

R1 on 3rd R2 on 1st..

Shortstop is playing almost behind pitcher.. Ball is pitched out to batter..R2 is going on the pitch..catcher comes up firing but does not release the ball..SS tags R2..R2 thinking she was tagged stops...R1 believing there was a throw heads to home where she is tagged by the catcher who then throws to 1st who then tags R2.

Deceitful play..NFHS says you cannot fag a tag. So this deceitful play is not allowed. NFHS rules do not mention that other deceitful plays are legal.

It does state,however, that any deceitful play or any play that is not in the spirit of fair play is unsportsmanlike conduct. Don't see how you could rule any other way. If the hidden ball trick is not a deceitful play...then what would you call it???

What about in football the old fumble-rooski..?????

Blue Plate:

1) I do not officiate football (but I use to officiate futbol, ), but I do believe that the fumble-rooski play in NFHS Football is not illegal. I am sure that if you asked on the Football Forum, someone will answer your inquiry.

2) Faking a tag is obstruction and is not not covered under the provisions of unsportsmanlike conduct.

3) The hidden ball play is nothing more than a trick play used to fool an opposing runner. Nothing unsportsmanlike about it.

But let me ask you another question: Do you officiate soccer? I ask because my experience with soccer officials is that only they possibly would consider the OP and the hidden ball play deceitful and unsportsmanlike conduct.

MTD, Sr.

[Tru_in_Blu]

legitimate trickery

I love this phrase. I love this concept.

The only downside to this is if I end up being tricked!