The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > General / Off-Topic
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #76 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 05:15pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,533
RIT?

When you will act like a professional. Thank you for proving to everyone what you are really about.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #77 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 05:22pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Jurassic -

I’ll try to keep this simple. Apparently you have a problem with the word “overrule”. Feel free to substitute “change”, “alter” or “make-correct” if it helps.

DonÂ’t pull any of that selective memory crap, youÂ’re just as guilty. Several members pointed out that you are playing word games with just one post. I clarified the issue and gave examples of what is acceptable. It seems that none of your basketball compadres are coming to your rescue here either. Amazing, no???

I believe that Canuckrefguy gave a fine example of another NCAA game where those referees found it within themselves to change/alter/overrule a call that was made. His post was made at 7:58 last night, but heÂ’s probably not aware that what he saw couldnÂ’t have happened because you say so. So, in answer to your question, yes calls are changed/altered/overruled by other officials at the NCAA and FED level. Should they be, YES!

Windy, I don't have a problem with the word "overrule" at all. I also don't have a problem with the words "change", "alter" or "make correct" either. The FACT still remains that the NCAA and NFHS rules that I cited very specifically say that one official CANNOT OVERRULE, CHANGE, ALTER, or MAKE CORRECT another official's decision. You have given your opinion- nothing else. Your opinion is in direct conflict with the RULES that I cited. The only person that can change a call in basketball is the official that made that call in the first place. That's what the rules state. And NO- calls at the NCAA and FED levels are NEVER OVERRULED by another official. The rules DO NOT permit that.

As to your other reference to Canuckrefguy's post, were you aware that the play that he was talking about is covered by a completely different rule, and is not germane at all to this discussion? If you knew anything at all about the basketball rules, you might have known that. If two officials make conflicting calls on a single play- as in one calling it a violation and the other calling it a foul- then the officials MUST decide which occurred first, and then they HAVE to go with that call. Different rule completely, Windy. The officials still CANNOT OVERRULE one another on this play. They HAVE to come to an agreement on which occurred first. And btw, if the officials hadda each called a foul on different players, such as on a block/charge- and they can't agree what call they should go with, again neither of the officials CAN OVERRULE the other. A completely different rule is used again now, Windy. If they can't agree on which foul to go with, then both players get a foul charged to them, and you have a jump ball and an arrow possession. You were aware of all of these different rules that apply for all of these different situations though, weren't you, Windy? Do you know what they all have in common, btw? In NONE of these situations can one official OVERRULE another official's call!

Lah me. Guy's never looked at a basketball rule book in his life, but he's trying to tell me that he's right and the rules are wrong. Un-freaking-believable!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 11th, 2004 at 06:26 PM]
  #78 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 05:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Tweed Heads, NSW, Australia
Posts: 559
Angry

Guys - this is getting out of hand. Obviously the two of you are never going to agree - so why not just drop it and let it go!
__________________
Duane Galle
P.s. I'm a FIBA referee - so all my posts are metric

Visit www.geocities.com/oz_referee
  #79 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 05:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 235
Ah Windy...

I will not deal with your name calling. That speaks for itself.

I have watched this discussion closely. Windy you are so wrong.

They already use replay in the NCAA and NBA Basketball.

You are only a baseball umpire. Not one level that I am aware of uses any replay in baseball. Not the Majors. Not the NCAA World Series. Not LL or any games that you see on TV. Not sure what point you are trying to make here.

You find one guy that lives in Canada to back up your position. I am not even sure that they use NCAA Rules up there. International Basketball is mostly governed by FIBA. FIBA does not even use three officials to work games yet. Nothing against canuckref and his knowledge of this issue but I assume that he does not work under NF which works very closely with the NCAA on deciding rules and mechanics. For God Sake both the NF and NCAA are based in Indianapolis, Indiana.

It is clear that you have not read all the other posts here. Many people keep saying it is unacceptable is not the way to go. I am a baseball umpire as well and worked that the longest out of all my sports. You cannot take one point of view and claim you have the right answer.
__________________
Treat everyone as you would like to be treated.
  #80 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 05:50pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee
Guys - this is getting out of hand. Obviously the two of you are never going to agree - so why not just drop it and let it go!
Well, you're probably right in that we are never gonna agree. However, the last thing in the world that I want to see is maybe a new basketball official to take a look at one of Windy's posts and possibly think that there might be a rules basis for what he is saying. There- plain and simple- isn't! He's wrong!

On the plus side, I haven't called him any names yet, have I?
  #81 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 06:07pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,533
OZ, I have to agree with JR on this one here.

OZ,

JR is completely right. Someone is going read this board (basketball officials) and think that a baseball only is telling them the proper procedure. Of course we are not going to agree, but that is why you debate the issue. Because if in the game of football or basketball you do what a NCAA Baseball Umpire claims to do, then you will never get anywhere. I know guys that "step on the toes" of their partners and they do not advance because no one wants to work with them. In all the sports I work the higher ups always talk about how the officials are a team. We are to support out partners even when they make mistakes. Unless you have a serious rules violation, you stay away from judgment calls.

Also for the record, Windy is not a basketball official. Windy was not mentioned in my original question. I just wanted opinions. I am sure there are others that feel Windy's point of view are right. But I asked the question to see if there were situations that apply outside of replay. Windy has come here name calling because I am not a member of his organization in the Chicagoland area. That is what this is about and why he has come here and called me all these names. I do not know his email and do not care to talk to him thru email. He is a troll that cannot stand for an RIT to be seen as a success. I do not know why the moderators let his personal rants go on. JR and I have stuck to the issues of the debate. That is why we are here; I cannot speak for the other person.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #82 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 08:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref

This is idiotic.

By rule, one official cannot overrule (unilaterally overturn, make invalid, change or deny a decision) another official's call. Example: C calls 3 seconds on A1, T blows the whistle to declare A1 did not violate the 3 second rule. This cannot be done by rule.

However, any official can, by rule, bring potentially new information to the calling official at any time. Example: L gives the ball to B on an OOB off A1, C comes in to tell L that he saw the ball go OOB off B1. This is perfectly acceptable by rule. In this case the L decides whether or not the new information has standing and whether or not to change his call.

In practice, how & when it's acceptable to bring new information to the calling official is determined during the pregame.
  #83 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 08:04pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

This is idiotic.

I agree with that 110%.
  #84 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 08:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,628
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun


Sure, you are right, it doesn't mean that we should ball-hawk. But, that is what it turns out to be.
Tom, that is what it CAN turn out to be. It doesn't always. The point is that good refs don't have an inflated ego to defend. If they goof, and the partner can help them fix it, then the most important thing is to get it right, not to look good. The good ref would rather change his call and look a little foolish for a short time, than to maintain his superficial image at the expense of the game. "Get the call right" definitely doesn't have to mean that no one is watching off-ball.
Juulie, exactly what I was trying to say. I just needed YOU to say it, apparently
__________________
HOMER: Just gimme my gun.
CLERK: Hold on, the law requires a five-day waiting period; we've got run a background check...
HOMER: Five days???? But I'm mad NOW!!
  #85 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 08:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,628
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
I can tell you with confidence that when an official reads that this board they go out and watch the ball just in case they have to "get it right."
You've got to be joking.
  #86 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 08:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lawton, OK
Posts: 505
Re: Mommy, make the mean man stop!

Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Sorry WeekendRef, but Rut brought this to this Board, not I.
He has twisted the facts and clouded the issues.

Jurassic -

It seems that none of your basketball compadres are coming to your rescue here either. Amazing, no???

Hey Brad, would you do me a favor and take out the trash?
  #87 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 11, 2004, 11:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Tweed Heads, NSW, Australia
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee
Guys - this is getting out of hand. Obviously the two of you are never going to agree - so why not just drop it and let it go!
Well, you're probably right in that we are never gonna agree. However, the last thing in the world that I want to see is maybe a new basketball official to take a look at one of Windy's posts and possibly think that there might be a rules basis for what he is saying. There- plain and simple- isn't! He's wrong!

On the plus side, I haven't called him any names yet, have I?
JR and Rut - look I agree with you both. And we all know here that there is no basis in the rules for what this Windy guy is saying.

All I was trying to say was - let it go. You are obviously never going to "win" the arguement with him, and any half-brained reader of this post should realise that Windy has no idea.

Just my (metric) two cents
__________________
Duane Galle
P.s. I'm a FIBA referee - so all my posts are metric

Visit www.geocities.com/oz_referee
  #88 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 12, 2004, 01:12am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee
[/B]
JR and Rut - look I agree with you both. And we all know here that there is no basis in the rules for what this Windy guy is saying.

All I was trying to say was - let it go. You are obviously never going to "win" the arguement with him, and any half-brained reader of this post should realise that Windy has no idea.

[/B][/QUOTE]Good advice, Duane.
  #89 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 12, 2004, 01:58am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,533
Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee


JR and Rut - look I agree with you both. And we all know here that there is no basis in the rules for what this Windy guy is saying.

All I was trying to say was - let it go. You are obviously never going to "win" the arguement with him, and any half-brained reader of this post should realise that Windy has no idea.

Just my (metric) two cents
No problems here. I will take your advice.



Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #90 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 12, 2004, 05:44am
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
Quote:
Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
I can tell you with confidence that when an official reads that this board they go out and watch the ball just in case they have to "get it right."
You've got to be joking.
No, I'm absolutely serious. It doesn't matter who says it doesn't turn out that way. For one, it doesn't need to be said during a pre-game or any other time. Secondly, what I'm saying is reality. There is already enough problems with officials watching the ball, you make this comment and you have 4 or 6 eyes on the ball all over the court. One definition of mechanics is "The functional and technical aspects of an activity." Discussing mechanics during pre-game, teaching mechanics from day one will help the game more than saying "just get it right." Just like Rut and JR mentioned, there could be young officials reading this thread and they should know how to do things right. Are there situations where you may need to help your partner out, abosolutely. Should I constantly be looking in his/her primary just in case, absolutely not. I make mistakes on the court all the time and will continue to do so. I can recognize quickly the difference between a partner who helps me out and a partner who is looking in my area all game. If you can't see how saying "just get it right" would allow someone to feel more comfortable watching the ball maybe you haven't worked enough games or uh maybe you are watching the ball!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1