Overruling your partner?

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

You'd better stop reading this board then...there's nothing but hypocritical basketball guys here. You might want to check out the baseball board, be careful though it contains a great deal of multi syllable words. If you need help, just raise your hand and wait...

Brad - can you shut this thread (or this poster)down....from where I sit, these sort of comments are neither productive or promoting discussion (as opposed to arguement) and are bordering on flaming all us basketball officials.

But hey - what would I know, as well as being a basketball referee and occasionally using single syllable words - I am also not American, so clearly my opinion is worthless

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by OverAndBack

Still waiting for "clever."

Come on! You didn't think my Steve Jobs reference was clever?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Oz Referee


Brad - can you shut this thread (or this poster)down....from where I sit, these sort of comments are neither productive or promoting discussion (as opposed to arguement) and are bordering on flaming all us basketball officials.

But hey - what would I know, as well as being a basketball referee and occasionally using single syllable words - I am also not American, so clearly my opinion is worthless

OZ,

Do not read the post if it bothers you so much. I think it should stay open. I want this tool to make himself look stupid. The more it stays open the better.

Peace

[Oz Referee]

Rut - it's not that I personally have a problem with this thread. It is more that:

a) it is no longer answered the original question, and

b) if new members read this post they will get the impression that we are a bunch of bickering idiots.

[JRutledge]

OZ,

With all due respect, officiating brings out the best and the worst in people. You are going to see people that do everything to help each other at all costs. Then you will find people that will try to rip each other apart. Officials can have huge egos and that comes out here. Any new official is going to face that in their associations, they are surely going to deal with that here.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JRutledge

You were all over JR when you spoke out of line when he commented on your comments about what basketball officials can and cannot do. That was you (sic) big claim to him. Now you want to cry foul?

Wrong...I used an example of a very specific play that occurred in the 2004 NCAA Tournament to support my theory that sports are moving in a direction to get the call right. I cited a baseball, basketball and football example that showed one official correcting anotherÂ’s call. It happened, you say it can't because the rules donÂ’t allow for it. I bet the NCAA football rule book for 2004 makes no allowances for instant replay, yet it will happen in the Big Ten this Fall. The Official Rules of Baseball make no provision for overruling a call, yet weÂ’ve seen it occur several times this year. Only a time machine will prove you right.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I did not critique a technique or rule interp. I simply offered a counterpoint to the thread starter's attempt to drag an issue onto this board after it had been closed on the baseball site.

I did not drag any issue into this discussion. I left names and places out of it. I asked a question because you seemed to be afraid to do so, after you have used football and basketball examples to support your point of view.

Two (2) separate threads on the Baseball Board told you that your opinion was mistaken. Others pointed out the folly in trying to argue with ACTUAL PLAYS that happened and were viewed on TVs across the world. The rule books contain many things that are ambiguous, misguided or hard to enforce in the real world.


[QUOTE] I cannot think of a single issue where "everyone" agrees and goes along with whatever point of view that is discussed.


How about the ones that point out that your posts are grammatically challenged. I cannot recall one person that defended your mastery of our native tongue.


[QUOTE] You have admitted you do not work basketball, but you keep talking about what you saw. You have given no rule, you have not referenced any conversations with D1 Officials (I know a few btw) in those sports, you did not talk to any HS Clinicians or people with our area to confirm your point of view.

Talking to some D-1 officials is one thing, working on a regular season crew with them is another. Because I am not a basketball official, I could not possibly have trusted my eyes and ears when the play happened? I should have turned it off when SportsCenter replayed it and Digger Phelps said that the calling official made an incorrect call and was big enough to allow his partner to change it? I had money on the game and the call was crucial to my winnings, so YES, I remember it very clearly. As you have said many times, you did not, so donÂ’t begin to tell me what happened. The last time I checked, Dan Patrick and his sportscaster cronies are not officials but often discuss bad calls, so they should probably keep quiet, right???

All you have been suggesting is that you have more knowledge than others because you work D1 Baseball.

No Rut, I did not come to this Board to flex my basketball knowledge, you really should read more carefully. I have stated several times that I donÂ’t work basketball at any level and admire the job that many of you do. My umpiring resume is vast and includes multiple seasons in the Minors, NCAA and Fed experience. IÂ’ve been officiating longer than you have been alive and donÂ’t consider gaining your respect as one of my goals. When you can stay focused to the topic, write intelligently and argue with facts and not suppositions, I will begin to respect you. Until then, I will continue to clarify each muddied issue, misguided ruling and unverified fact that you present to these Boards.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

I bet the NCAA football rule book for 2004 makes no allowances for instant replay, yet it will happen in the Big Ten this Fall. The Official Rules of Baseball make no provision for overruling a call, yet weÂ’ve seen it occur several times this year. Only a time machine will prove you right.

The rulebook is not going to change for one conference and a situation that is totally experimental. It is very possible after this year that this would not be allowed. And instant replay review is not the basis of this discussion. When a fellow partner can or cannot "overrule" a call. The Big Ten system is not going to involve coaches or involve the on field officials at all. It is also possible that no plays could be reviewed. So you know, the Big Ten looked into this last year and reviewed and recorded how many plays might be affected if instant replay were to come into play. This is where this system came from.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Two (2) separate threads on the Baseball Board told you that your opinion was mistaken. Others pointed out the folly in trying to argue with ACTUAL PLAYS that happened and were viewed on TVs across the world. The rule books contain many things that are ambiguous, misguided or hard to enforce in the real world.

You make it sound like no one else watches TV. We do nothing but discuss plays and mechanics all through the season and it really intensifies when March Madness comes. Not sure what point you are trying to make. People all over the country come here and debates the procedures and the rules in those games. What is your point?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
How about the ones that point out that your posts are grammatically challenged. I cannot recall one person that defended your mastery of our native tongue.

Actually that is you and Peter. And if that is such a problem, you sure seem to understand this post and come up with a counter point. If it was that bad, you surely would not come here and try to say, “I had a counterpoint." You would not understand the point at all. What does this have to do with the issue we are talking about?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Talking to some D-1 officials is one thing, working on a regular season crew with them is another.

Basketball officials do not work on a crew. They work with different people all the time. Not sure what your point is there either.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Because I am not a basketball official, I could not possibly have trusted my eyes and ears when the play happened? I should have turned it off when SportsCenter replayed it and Digger Phelps said that the calling official made an incorrect call and was big enough to allow his partner to change it? I had money on the game and the call was crucial to my winnings, so YES, I remember it very clearly.

Wait, wait, wait a freakin minute. You are coming to a basketball board, referencing Digger Phelps of all people and his comments about what officials did on a court? You did not just say that. I cannot believe you just said that. So I assume that you consider Rob Dibble as an umpiring expert? So when he talks about umpires and the job they screw up, he knows what he is talking about?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
As you have said many times, you did not, so donÂ’t begin to tell me what happened. The last time I checked, Dan Patrick and his sportscaster cronies are not officials but often discuss bad calls, so they should probably keep quiet, right???

You did it again. So when Dan Patrick discusses the rules, they know what they are talking about? Are you really an official? You work D1 ball and Minor League Ball and you are seriously quoting media personalities about bad calls as your explanation of your point of view? Next thing you are going to tell me is that NFL Primetime is a great place to learn NFL Rules and Philosophy? I guess I should watch NFL Countdown and listen to Jaws about what the "tuck rule" or explain to us when the officials misapplied a rule?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
No Rut, I did not come to this Board to flex my basketball knowledge

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I have stated several times that I donÂ’t work basketball at any level and admire the job that many of you do.

Well I have been working basketball for 9 years. Eight of those years I have worked almost entirely varsity ball. And none of that means anything. Other than the facts that I have been to a lot of camps, taught at camps and currently help run organizations to completely understand procedures and practices. You on the other hand have not been to any of those things according to you.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
My umpiring resume is vast and includes multiple seasons in the Minors, NCAA and Fed experience. IÂ’ve been officiating longer than you have been alive and donÂ’t consider gaining your respect as one of my goals.

You have been working more that 30 years at baseball? That is not what you said before. What does that have to do with not ever working basketball? We are talking basketball (and you mentioned football, another sport you do not work)?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
When you can stay focused to the topic, write intelligently and argue with facts and not suppositions, I will begin to respect you. Until then, I will continue to clarify each muddied issue, misguided ruling and unverified fact that you present to these Boards.

Thank you again for your post. You just proved my point and I did not have to point it out.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

The rulebook is not going to change for one conference and a situation that is totally experimental.

That is my point, you argue that the rule book doesnÂ’t allow for an official to be overruled. I have just shown you that the rule book does not contain the provision for this yearÂ’s instant replay experiment in the Big Ten as well as the basketball scenario. You canÂ’t have it both ways.


What is your point?

You wouldnÂ’t understand.



What does this have to do with the issue we are talking about?

IÂ’ve tried to explain rationally, you appear to be beyond help. But IÂ’m certain that the other readers are starting to figure you out.



Basketball officials do not work on a crew. They work with different people all the time. Not sure what your point is there either.

You seem to be enamored with D-1 status and rubbing elbows with those who work that schedule. Yet...you continue to tell someone at that level that you know more. I can see why you have to talk to them at meetings rather than on the field or court.



You are coming to a basketball board, referencing Digger Phelps of all people and his comments about what officials did on a court? You did not just say that. I cannot believe you just said that. So I assume that you consider Rob Dibble as an umpiring expert? So when he talks about umpires and the job they screw up, he knows what he is talking about?

Yes, actually I think that both of the gentlemen you mentioned are better versed than you. Coach Phelps was coaching College basketball before you were born. I’m fairly certain that he can recognize and error in a call, we did. As for Dibble, are you telling us that he went blind? Where do I send the card? He kept staring at an 84” Plasma on Baseball Tonight and diagraming things on the telestrator, but he was just faking it??? I guess when you slow down a play and freeze frame a call, there is no way to see what actually occurred unless you are one of the game officials. Shut up before you embarrass yourself even more!


You did it again. So when Dan Patrick discusses the rules, they know what they are talking about? Are you really an official? You work D1 ball and Minor League Ball and you are seriously quoting media personalities about bad calls as your explanation of your point of view? Next thing you are going to tell me is that NFL Primetime is a great place to learn NFL Rules and Philosophy? I guess I should watch NFL Countdown and listen to Jaws about what the "tuck rule" or explain to us when the officials misapplied a rule?

Did your mother drop you when you were little? Are you trying to say that you canÂ’t watch a highlight/replay show, see bad call, recognize them and discuss them without being an official in that sport? They televise sports for a reason, so that millions of people who canÂ’t be there, can see the action. Millions of armchair quarterbacks second guess calls every day. The guys that do it on TV are being paid for their opinions. And yes, when Terry Bradshaw, Howie Long, Sterling Sharp and Troy Aikman explain something, IÂ’ll listen. And IÂ’ll give them the same credence that I gave Bruce Froemming when he explained his blown call on WGN yesterday.



Well I have been working basketball for 9 years. Eight of those years I have worked almost entirely varsity ball. And none of that means anything. Other than the facts that I have been to a lot of camps, taught at camps and currently help run organizations to completely understand procedures and practices. You on the other hand have not been to any of those things according to you.

And your point is... (on the top of your head?)



You have been working more that 30 years at baseball? That is not what you said before.

You should read better. You keep insisting that IÂ’m a guy in my mid-thirties. So, you are wrong on many fronts.


What does that have to do with not ever working basketball? We are talking basketball (and you mentioned football, another sport you do not work)?

Uh, oh...isnÂ’t that what I tell you on the Baseball Board. You donÂ’t like it when I talk about reference another sport? Do you need me to hotlink all of those times you were chastised for doing?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
When you can stay focused to the topic, write intelligently and argue with facts and not suppositions, I will begin to respect you. Until then, I will continue to clarify each muddied issue, misguided ruling and unverified fact that you present to these Boards.

Thank you again for your post. You just proved my point and I did not have to point it out.

That’s frickin’ perfect...I couldn’t have written your line any better. You were off point several times, used poor grammar, alluded to facts that were incorrect and challenged those that have far more knowledge and experience. I can almost hear the others laughing at you now. Did you notice that none of your basketball compadres are coming to your rescue on this one? All they can say is, “Leave him alone, go back to the Baseball Board.” Yet, you keep coming back for another whuppin’. I’ll wait for your next statement of genius and give everyone another good laugh.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

1) That is my point, you argue that the rule book doesnÂ’t allow for an official to be overruled.

2) I can almost hear the others laughing at you now.

1) Uh, no. The NCAA and NFHS basketball rule books very explicitly state that an official may not be OVERRULED by another official. That's a FACT! YOUR "point" is that you are saying that those particular rule books are wrong, and that one basketball official CAN overrule another basketball official. You are wrong.

2) What "others"? Could we have names, please, to back up that statement? I haven't seen any basketball officials "laughing" at Jeff in this thread. When you give us the names, feel free to include the "Umpires of Accomplishment", your various "Observer" friends and anyone else that you can come up with, but a general statement like that does require names if you would like it to have even a hint of credibility attached to it. I repeat. Please post the names of all of the "others" who are laughing at Jeff. Or withdraw your statement as being false. Your choice.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
2) What "others"? Could we have names, please, to back up that statement? I haven't seen any basketball officials "laughing" at Jeff in this thread. When you give us the names, feel free to include the "Umpires of Accomplishment", your various "Observer" friends and anyone else that you can come up with, but a general statement like that does require names if you would like it to have even a hint of credibility attached to it. I repeat. Please post the names of all of the "others" who are laughing at Jeff. Or withdraw your statement as being false. Your choice.

That will never happen. Just like he will not give any names of any officials that will apply this system he keeps referencing. They are all over the place and he has not one time mentioned any of their names. I have mentioned several officials. I will see several on every Tuesday of the football season.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Go to the football site...take your broken down lower Michigan friend with and read the recent posts. You will several people that state quite clearly that they have been part of games where overruling the call was appropriate. I believe Jumpmaster chastised you for bringing this up again. Chris S and a couple that followed all said the same thing. By the way, genius, all of those involved are multi sport officials and recognize that some calls must be remedied, for the good of the game. You would rather argue over one or two specific plays (pass interference, called strikes, a personal foul) and only Jurassic keeps oming to your side. Are you related?

You keep asking for names, learn to read the header and you'll figure out this extremely difficult puzzle.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Go to the football site...take your broken down lower Michigan friend with and read the recent posts. You will several people that state quite clearly that they have been part of games where overruling the call was appropriate.

And there are several people that say it was totally inappropriate. Now what?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I believe Jumpmaster chastised you for bringing this up again. Chris S and a couple that followed all said the same thing.

With all due respect, but who are these people? Are they someone I am going to work with? Are they a member of my association? Do they assign me games in their conferences? And I would not call their point of view or their situation as chastising. But you seem to forget all the people clearly said, “never" or "you cannot do that," as well. Why is these people’s point of view not mentioned by you? I am sure Jumpmaster is a decent official, but I cannot quote Jumpmaster when I get on the field. I cannot quote Chris S when I talk to my assignor about a play on the field. I am not even sure any of these individuals work any higher of a level than I have achieved or worked at the level longer. Or better yet have worked the playoffs. There is a big difference between crews in the Chicago area as compared to that downstate. Who are these people? (BTW, they could easily say all the same things about me)

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
By the way, genius, all of those involved are multi sport officials and recognize that some calls must be remedied, for the good of the game. You would rather argue over one or two specific plays (pass interference, called strikes, a personal foul) and only Jurassic keeps oming to your side. Are you related?

My comment about being a multi-sport official is that you are not one. This is not about anyone but you. You are not a multi-sport official. It is even questionable if you are a respected umpire in the area we live. And just because you claim to work D1 baseball, does not change that fact.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You keep asking for names, learn to read the header and you'll figure out this extremely difficult puzzle.

SoGARef, Snake~eyes, rdfox, chiefgil, PSU213, Simbio and ABoselli all took positions that suggest that is not the way to go. There were others that talked about changing calls and were specific on how to do it, but did not go along with your point of view. Actually they did not go along with anyone specific point of view. They answered the question as it was asked and was not knowledgeable about the previous discussions we have had. And at least two of these individuals work other sports. Not that it matters.


Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

What a hypocrite...

SoGARef, Snake~eyes, rdfox, chiefgil, PSU213, Simbio and ABoselli all took positions that suggest that is not the way to go.


Do you work with any of these guys? I didn't think so.
You dismissed the examples I gave, because you don't work with them and they agreed with me. If you read the others - even some that you mentioned - they have either been involved in plays that were overruled or don't think that they can or were handled properly. You have just shown all of us that you have a double standard.

By the way, I spoke with a pretty good referee last night. In addition to multiple baseball State Finals, he and his crew have worked the IHSA football playoffs for six straight years. When I asked him about overruling a partner, he asked if I had ever seen a referee wave off a flag thrown by a partner. I asked if this was just semantics and he said, that the way his crew handles it, if they get together and agree that the flag was bogus he will over rule it. But, since you don't work with him, he must be a bad official with bad mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


Do you work with any of these guys? I didn't think so.

Wow, you are really bright.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You dismissed the examples I gave, because you don't work with them and they agreed with me. If you read the others - even some that you mentioned - they have either been involved in plays that were overruled or don't think that they can or were handled properly. You have just shown all of us that you have a double standard.

What are you talking about? I just point out that most people think you cannot overrule your partner. And it does not matter if more people feel one way or another, this is not a vote. I do know this; we got rid of a guy on my crew because he tried to do things that undermined his fellow officials.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
By the way, I spoke with a pretty good referee last night. In addition to multiple baseball State Finals, he and his crew have worked the IHSA football playoffs for six straight years. When I asked him about overruling a partner, he asked if I had ever seen a referee wave off a flag thrown by a partner. I asked if this was just semantics and he said, that the way his crew handles it, if they get together and agree that the flag was bogus he will over rule it. But, since you don't work with him, he must be a bad official with bad mechanics.

I work on a crew that worked a State Final just last season. It was their second State Final in the past 4 years. I am the 6th man and the youngest member on the crew and the only non-Certified Officials on that crew. The crew has very strong personalities, including myself. I have worked about 18 varsity games (not including the lower level games) with them over the past two years. There has never been a time where they "overruled" another partner on a game I worked with them or a game they have talked about. There are at times like any crew, disagreements on calls and mechanics. I have NEVER seen an official on that crew "overrule" each other.

You keep talking about how a flag is picked up and giving that as an example of being overruled. First of all, it is not a penalty until the Referee administers the foul. The calling official might pick up the flag on their own (they have to still tell the Referee) if they see something that changed it. A fellow official might ask them a question that could change their mind. On my crew I tell guys that throw flags together, talk before you get to me. They might decide that one of the flags was improper or decide they have the same thing or just decide they have nothing. But until they tell me what the foul(s) are, no foul has taken place. I have not given a preliminary signal, nor have I given the captains their options.

I do not care what your friend says, because he very will not be considered an elite officials or his crew might not be considered elite. There are a lot of crews that only work first round games and never progress much further than that. So his baseball accomplishments are not relevant to other sports. I work with guys that just did a State Final; I guess they have no idea from your point of view?

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

They worked a State Final...you've worked 18 varsity games...uh, oh, step aside LeMonnier, Lyons, Ciulla, Orris, Steeves, et al because the wise and knowledgeable clinic attendee Jeff Rutledge knows more.

When an official calls a foul (throws a flag) and the LJ, BJ and U disagree, who gets the final say? So, one or more who made the call, can have it overruled when the referee declares the actual call and administers the penalty. I get it...their call means nothing until the referee verbalizes and signals it to the sidelines. I was under the impression that all guys are equal out there.