Overruling your partner?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


From Jeff Rutledge's original post-
I will stay completely out of this discussion and just throw this out there.

Does that mean insert replies four (4) times to the very question at issue?

I can see RIF is a problem for you. My responses had nothing to do with the actual question, but side issues that relate to this issue. I have not told people what to say or where to take the issues. They answered them on their own and used the words they felt made sense. I am wondering are you going to ever admit what people have said here and say you were wrong.

BTW, you mentioned that the instant replay system will make Big Ten Officials more accountable. Well, they are already held accountable. Big Ten Officials are already graded on every single call and non-call in all games they officiate. They are even graded on their mechanics and positioning on EVERY SINGLE PLAY. All the instant replay system is going to do, is help those calls that are might be reviewed by the NFL. That is it. No passing interference calls. Not fumble/down by contact calls when the whistle was blown. And this is only an experiment. It could easily go away after this year. Not sure this raises the level of accountability for the Big Ten.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Tom, that is what it CAN turn out to be. It doesn't always. The point is that good refs don't have an inflated ego to defend. If they goof, and the partner can help them fix it, then the most important thing is to get it right, not to look good. The good ref would rather change his call and look a little foolish for a short time, than to maintain his superficial image at the expense of the game. "Get the call right" definitely doesn't have to mean that no one is watching off-ball. At least, it doesn't when I say it! [/B]

I agree that good refs shouldn't have an inflated ego. I have a question for you. If, on a normal play, I have match-ups in my area and something happens in your area like a call, non-call, foot on the line or the like and you don't see it why would I see it? We could talk primary, secondary and the like but what about the fact that if you clearly see a play that is in someone else's primary and you have a match-up in your primary things can happen that you didn't see?
I know what happens in a regular game and it isn't the thought of someone else giving me some information. I ask for help on line a lot because I don't want to miss something in the middle of my primary. We are here to get it right, why say it? I've heard many examples of this when someone's foot is on the line across the court or something similar. I have never heard this said on this board concerning a play away from the ball. I don't think that is coincidence. I'm sure you don't mean it to be a license to watch the ball but what does saying it help? I can tell you with confidence that when an official reads that this board they go out and watch the ball just in case they have to "get it right."

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I am wondering are you going to ever admit what people have said here and say you were wrong.

Do you mean posting a direct quote from a basketball member that supports my theory? Wait a minute, I did.

BTW, you mentioned that the instant replay system will make Big Ten Officials more accountable. Well, they are already held accountable. Big Ten Officials are already graded on every single call and non-call in all games they officiate. They are even graded on their mechanics and positioning on EVERY SINGLE PLAY. All the instant replay system is going to do, is help those calls that are might be reviewed by the NFL. That is it. No passing interference calls. Not fumble/down by contact calls when the whistle was blown. And this is only an experiment. It could easily go away after this year. Not sure this raises the level of accountability for the Big Ten.
[/B]

Therein lies the problem...you don't see that the VERY REASON they are implementing this system is to HAVE THE RIGHT CALL MADE ON GAME DECIDING ISSUES. I did not invent the system or limit its use. If it corrects even one game deciding call, then it worked.

It will not go away next year, because the SEC and PAC10 have already made inquiries about having a system in place and have been told to wait until the bugs have been worked out - most likely the following season. I suggest that you read the entire article (published in the Chicago SunTimes, as I pointed out several times on the BB site).

You seem to have issues with accountability and having your calls corrected. I have never suggested that your partner should blow the whistle and say, "No, idiot boy, there was a travel before the blocking call. Wake up and watch me make the right call." I work with higher level officials and have the tact to approach them (even in a heated play) to say that I saw something different. At that level of ball they don't let their egos get in the way. We'll go get a beer after the game and chew on the play for a while and know that we got it right. AND...we recognize that we have each other's backs and don't hang each other on a controversial overturn. Maybe you've experienced the opposite and that is a shame. The game is not about me and my crew. Just like Tom Ridge said, we have to get it right every time - all of our blunders live on in perpetuity. If you can't humble yourself to accept that the call may have been incorrect, then the problem is yours, and should not be the athlete's.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


Therein lies the problem...you don't see that the VERY REASON they are implementing this system is to HAVE THE RIGHT CALL MADE ON GAME DECIDING ISSUES. I did not invent the system or limit its use. If it corrects even one game deciding call, then it worked.

So are you telling me that Pass Interference calls could not be game changing? I would highly doubt that PI calls are going to be reviewed and changed in this system. They cannot be changed in the NFL. Ask the Colts and Payton Manning? Not much the instant replay could do about possible defensive holding calls.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
It will not go away next year, because the SEC and PAC10 have already made inquiries about having a system in place and have been told to wait until the bugs have been worked out - most likely the following season. I suggest that you read the entire article (published in the Chicago SunTimes, as I pointed out several times on the BB site).

Of course they have. That is why this is just an experiment. They all belong to the NCAA and the NCAA might say there is no way to use the system properly for all games and not allow the system at the NCAA level. Also remember that Michigan-Ohio State will have more cameras than Illinois-Northwestern. So it is very possible that there will be a play that will not have a really good angle. So the system will already have flaws involved. There is already some complaint that a play that will get changed in the Big Ten might help a team win a NC or win a game that the system would not be able to change in other parts of the country.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You seem to have issues with accountability and having your calls corrected. I have never suggested that your partner should blow the whistle and say, "No, idiot boy, there was a travel before the blocking call. Wake up and watch me make the right call."

What does this have to do with me? If I move to the levels that I want to achieve, every single call will be reviewed. Not just the ones I call the ones I do not call. All contact plays, all mechanics movements or signals. I attend basketball camps all the time and have every call and every movement challenged. Why in the world I have a problem with calls being reviewed? They are if you work a varsity basketball game, because all games are pretty much taped. This is not about calls being reviewed. This is about who can change them or tell the calling official was wrong and at what point. This already happens with Basketball officials and football officials. I have had plays in football games being questioned about a call or two. Not to the level of the Big Ten of course, but it happens all the time. That does not happen with baseball that I have seen. You are lucky if the school even cares to tape their games at the HS level.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I work with higher level officials and have the tact to approach them (even in a heated play) to say that I saw something different. At that level of ball they don't let their egos get in the way. We'll go get a beer after the game and chew on the play for a while and know that we got it right. AND...we recognize that we have each other's backs and don't hang each other on a controversial overturn. Maybe you've experienced the opposite and that is a shame. The game is not about me and my crew.

What does any of that have to do with the discussion? I am waiting for your rules reference and justification by the rulebook or the procedures you suggest should be used.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Just like Tom Ridge said, we have to get it right every time - all of our blunders live on in perpetuity. If you can't humble yourself to accept that the call may have been incorrect, then the problem is yours, and should not be the athlete's.

I think Tom Ridge is dealing with an issue that affects life and death. The last time I checked, my out call at first has nothing to do with someone dying if I make a mistake. I also do not feel that one call is going to lose someone the game either. You always like to say your issues are based in logic and you really went way off base to make that point.

Again Windy, you have not addressed the vast majority of people that used the word "never" in their posts about this issue as it relates to "overruling" their partners or being "overruled." Most of the people here and on the other boards do not agree with your point of view. They seem to feel that they also have to have trust amongst their partner's and they have to let their partner's work the game. That is the facts of this discussion and you want to keep making this about me. This issue has nothing to do with my personal feelings, but I just wanted to illustrate that people literally all over the world disagree with your point of view on this. I do not care what levels you work, but for most of us, we are not changing calls for our partner's.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
[/B]

You seem to have issues with accountability and having your calls corrected. I have never suggested that your partner should blow the whistle and say, "No, idiot boy, there was a travel before the blocking call. Wake up and watch me make the right call."
[/B][/QUOTE]Oh, you wouldn't suggest that, eh? Was it another Windy City Blue that stated the following?-

"You claim that basketball officials never overrule a bad call. You said that includes FED and NCAA. I pointed out one very specific occassion where it occurred in the NCAA tournament last year.... Now you say that it wasn't overruled. The other official came in and gave another perspective indicating the call was incorrect. Then the calling official changed the call, but it was NOT overruled. When one official makes a bad call and another confers with him(maybe it takes seconds, maybe longer) to contradict the call, and it is changed, it has been overruled. A ruling was made, and it was turned over...thus OVERRULED.

Here's the link for your words above, Windy:
http://www.officialsforum.com/showth...3&pagenumber=5

Here's the applicable NCAA rules- once again, Windy:

NCAA rule 2-2-3-- "No official shall have the authority to set aside or question decisions made by other official(s) within the limits of their respective duties".

NCAA rule 2-2-4-- "One official may assist another official by providing additional information related to a made decision".

Now, tell me again, Windy, how can one official -by rule- OVERRULE another official's call, if that official doesn't want to change that call?

[WindyCityBlue]

Jurassic,
Is that a basketball rule book? Hmmmm, I thought that the information being discussed pertained to the NEW Big Ten football policy. I hope you read next year's book better than you read the last few posts.

Do you just see my name and need your heart medication?
That's too bad.

[WindyCityBlue]

recognizing that this is a basketball site, I apologize for Jeff's inability to let this die.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
So are you telling me that Pass Interference calls could not be game changing? I would highly doubt that PI calls are going to be reviewed and changed in this system. They cannot be changed in the NFL. Ask the Colts and Payton Manning? Not much the instant replay could do about possible defensive holding calls.

Did I develop the system? The Big Ten rules committee decided which plays can and will be reviewed. They were clearly spelled out in my orginal BB thread and in the article. You really should learn to read better.
Also, I didn't know that the Big Ten controlled the NFL. Thanks for clarifying the issue and maintaining focus. I'm certain that the rest of this Board is almost done laughing at you.

Of course they have. That is why this is just an experiment. They all belong to the NCAA and the NCAA might say there is no way to use the system properly for all games and not allow the system at the NCAA level. Also remember that Michigan-Ohio State will have more cameras than Illinois-Northwestern. So it is very possible that there will be a play that will not have a really good angle. So the system will already have flaws involved. There is already some complaint that a play that will get changed in the Big Ten might help a team win a NC or win a game that the system would not be able to change in other parts of the country.

One point at a time...the PAC10 and SEC asked for permission at the same time (ref. the Sports Illustrated article) the Big Ten was granted permission because they could accomplish it faster. Michigan-Ohio State will have the same amount of replay cameras in use as Indiana - Minnesota. Sorry to disappoint you but that too, was in the article. Complaining that a call was correctly made??? Yes, that is serious. ;}


Why in the world I have a problem with calls being reviewed?

I...Just...Don't...Know.
You have never shown a valid reason why your incorrect call should not be overruled. Several other members have given examples of why this should happen. Maybe you shoudl read their posts again, since mine seem too complex.

I am waiting for your rules reference and justification by the rulebook or the procedures you suggest should be used.

Again...read...the...SunTimes or SportsIllustrated articles. They will show you why and how these calls are justified in the 2004 Big Ten Football season.


Again Windy, you have not addressed the vast majority of people that used the word "never" in their posts about this issue as it relates to "overruling" their partners or being "overruled."

Oh, my...are you lying again??? I saw sevarl members point out that you are mistaken - both here and on the other Board.

Most of the people here and on the other boards do not agree with your point of view. They seem to feel that they also have to have trust amongst their partner's and they have to let their partner's work the game.

Yes, that is why the instant replay system will be implimented this season. Because guys like you are afraid to have their calls changed and your partners will cover up for your weaknesses.

I do not care what levels you work, but for most of us, we are not changing calls for our partner's.

I know...I know...that is why it is so sad. You see your partner kick a call, letting him hang rather than get it right and allowing the game to be played fairly. Let's penalize the contestants because of an official's pride or his partner's lack of a spine.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jurassic,
Is that a basketball rule book? Hmmmm, I thought that the information being discussed pertained to the NEW Big Ten football policy. I hope you read next year's book better than you read the last few posts.

Do you just see my name and need your heart medication?
That's too bad.

There goes your selective memory again, Windy. The whole argument to date has simply been about YOUR statement that a basketball official could OVERRULE another basketball official. I told you that was WRONG, and give your the appropriate rules citations to prove that you were WRONG! I cited them again above- for the umpteenth time. What part of these rules citations don't you understand? This issue has never had anything to do with football, baseball or any other sport, so quit trying to interject them. They aren't germane to this dispute in any way, shape or form. Stick with your original statement regarding basketball. The NCAA and FED basketball rule books say that YOUR statement is WRONG, Windy. Dispute that!

Now, cut all of your crap out, Windy. Are you still saying that the NCAA and NFHS basketball rulesets DO allow one official to OVERRULE another official's call? Yes or no? And if you say "yes", Windy, it certainly would be nice if you could cite something- anything- that would back up that assertation.

[WeekendRef]

Guys ,
Please take your conversation back to where it came from . You guys both seem to be fairly intelligent men so please understand that nobody wants this personal conversation spilling over to this forum .

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Yes, that is why the instant replay system will be implimented this season. Because guys like you are afraid to have their calls changed and your partners will cover up for your weaknesses.

[/B]

Lah me.

Windy, you never did answer my question in another post about the Big 10's experimental use of replay in football this year. Is it true, or not true, that this replay system will NOT be used for JUDGEMENT calls, such as penalties,etc.? I repeat- "WILL NOT BE USED FOR JUDGEMENT CALLS". Yes or no, Windy.

Lah me!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue



One point at a time...the PAC10 and SEC asked for permission at the same time (ref. the Sports Illustrated article) the Big Ten was granted permission because they could accomplish it faster. Michigan-Ohio State will have the same amount of replay cameras in use as Indiana - Minnesota. Sorry to disappoint you but that too, was in the article. Complaining that a call was correctly made??? Yes, that is serious. ;}

Have you ever had a conversation with a Big Ten Official about this? Considering that the Sun-Times and Sports Illustrated are just media publications and do not always state the procedures and what the practices are in place. They just talked about this issue last night at the COA meeting, where two members are going to act as "Instant Replay" officials (Tom Quinn and Jim Keogh). They will give a presentation later in the year and tell the membership how it works. So we will see. But these are people that will not sit on the field and make decisions. Not the same thing as what we discussed on the other boards.


I...Just...Don't...Know.
You have never shown a valid reason why your incorrect call should not be overruled.

I have a good reason; maybe I felt my call was right? Maybe I saw the entire play and was in position to make the call and got the call right?

Several other members have given examples of why this should happen. Maybe you shoudl read their posts again, since mine seem too complex.

Name them? Do not just say, “several other posters" and not reference their words. Then when they disagree with your assessment, then tell us I was wrong then?

Again...read...the...SunTimes or SportsIllustrated articles. They will show you why and how these calls are justified in the 2004 Big Ten Football season.

I did not realize that the Chicago SunTimes and SI was the rulebook. Interesting point of view. I will make sure I look at SI the next time they tell us that the NC game was decided by a call and how to handle it. I am sure they were right on during the Ohio State-Miami Fiesta Bowl game.


Oh, my...are you lying again??? I saw sevarl members point out that you are mistaken - both here and on the other Board.

Name them.

Most of the people here and on the other boards do not agree with your point of view. They seem to feel that they also have to have trust amongst their partner's and they have to let their partner's work the game.

How so? Most people have used the words "never" and "it is not my call to change" when talking about this issue. Even a couple of stories about how they did "overruled" someone and learned a lesson. Again, stop talking about in generalities, name them. I have not seen many people say you can "overrule" your partner's ever.

Yes, that is why the instant replay system will be implimented this season. Because guys like you are afraid to have their calls changed and your partners will cover up for your weaknesses.

One of the reasons this change was made was several plays that happen to Penn State and Joe Pa's team. One of the calls was in a game PSU was playing Ohio State and they were Passing Interference no calls. After that game Joe Pa was crying for Instant Replay. Nothing would have been change in those games under the system the Big Ten is implementing.

I know...I know...that is why it is so sad. You see your partner kick a call, letting him hang rather than get it right and allowing the game to be played fairly. Let's penalize the contestants because of an official's pride or his partner's lack of a spine.

Since you keep referring to football, I will give you a great example. I am the Referee or White hat on my crew. In a 5 man system, I have the QB and the kickers in most situations. When a ball is passed, I am not watching the flight of the ball. I am not watching the receivers to see if they are held. I am not seeing the ball being tipped at the LOS. I cannot rule on catch and no catch situation. If I watch those plays, I will miss my responsibilities with late hits or illegal hits on the QB or kicker. I cannot bail out my partner on any of those plays. No matter how much I would like to. Not if I am doing my job.

In baseball, if I am working the field, I cannot tell my partner that last pitch was over and change it. Even if it was obvious to me from my view point. My partner has a job to do, and if he or she cannot do it, they will not be there. If there is a play at the plate, I cannot tell my partner that he kicked a call on safe or out, if the ball was caught and a tag is at issue. Or I cannot help if the issue is whether the plate was touched or not. Of course I can help on whether the ball was dropped, but that is all I can do is help. I cannot tell him what to do after that.

In basketball most of the situations people talked about were out of bounds call. And it was made very clear that if they saw something that was obvious, they would inform their partner of what they saw. But I cannot think of one post that suggested that you come in and change the call without your partner's consent or outside of the "primary" coverage of that partner. A few years ago I was working a 3 Man basketball game and my partner called a foul while a player was about to shoot the ball and the ball went in. I went to my partner and quietly told him (did not signal) "the ball went in." He did not take my information and did not count the basket. When we got into the locker room, my other partner said to him, “you should have counted the basket." He went on to further say, “if your partner comes to you like that, take the advice on plays like that." All I could do is give that information. The official that made the call was sure he was right and made a decision. It is not my job to "make him" change the call that he made. I just provided information and it is up to him to do that. If there was an evaluator there, that would have been all they would have expected me to do and the rest would have been on my partner's shoulders.

Now, I have very clearly stated to you what can and cannot be done. You claim you only work baseball, but you want to debate what other sports do. I will be speaking at the IACAO Football Clinic this weekend (Saturday) and there will be just about every Chicago area assignor present. You can ask them all if you like. I will be giving a presentation myself at 1:00 and will discuss issues as it relates to working with your partners. If that is not good enough, the COA meets and Hinsdale South High School, every Tuesday at 7:00 until mid-October. Jim and Tom are present at about every meeting. Jim Keogh assigns about 30+ schools at the College level (D3 and JUCO) and helps scout for the NFL in their new program to recruit of find potential prospects to work in the NFL. Tom Quinn was in the Big Ten for years and worked with and helped mentor many current Big Ten Officials and is worshipped in our area. Both men know much more than officiating in football than I will ever know in my lifetime. Both worked in the Big Ten and have been evaluators for years. I just saw both of them yesterday and Steve Pamon (the only Black Crew Chief in the Big Ten) gave a presentation on the new NCAA Rules and talked briefly about this very issue on instant replay. So my knowledge about this issue is not from a paper, it is from the very people that will be involved in the process. You are welcome to come and ask them yourself.


Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WeekendRef
Guys ,
Please take your conversation back to where it came from . You guys both seem to be fairly intelligent men so please understand that nobody wants this personal conversation spilling over to this forum .

This is not a personal discussion. This discussion is about philosophy and rules that we all have to deal with. This is a very appropriate discussion, especially since all the NF and NCAA Rulebooks use very similar language. This is an interesting conversation, because I wanted to clearly know if any sport or any level believed that their partner could come in and change your call without you consent. No different than any question I would ask if I had had this conversation off this site.

Peace

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Oh, you wouldn't suggest that, eh? Was it another Windy City Blue that stated the following?-

"You claim that basketball officials never overrule a bad call. You said that includes FED and NCAA. I pointed out one very specific occassion where it occurred in the NCAA tournament last year.... Now you say that it wasn't overruled. The other official came in and gave another perspective indicating the call was incorrect. Then the calling official changed the call, but it was NOT overruled. When one official makes a bad call and another confers with him(maybe it takes seconds, maybe longer) to contradict the call, and it is changed, it has been overruled. A ruling was made, and it was turned over...thus OVERRULED.

This is more directed at Windy then you Jurrasic

I believe the sitch Windy is talking about is the Lead ref coming out with the Block call and the Trail ref coming in with a Travel. This is not an overrule. The Trail Official is not coming in and CHANGING his partners call. An overrule on his partners call would be more along the lines of changing his block call to a charge call (or even better nullifying the call and making it a no-call). He is GIVING information about something that happened BEFORE the block happened (the travel in this case). Once the travel is called the play is dead and the contact afterwards is not called unless it is severe enough to warrant a more severe foul (of a technical nature as it happened during a dead ball).

In this play, did you see both refs when the whistle was blown. Did both have a signal (one with an open hand the other with the fist)? If that is the case they have a double whistle and are supposed to discuss what happened first and make the correct call. Sometimes some refs (myself included (gotta work on this)) don't hear their p's whistle and make the signal of what they called (the Lead ref in the NCAA game) - The trail official realizing this and knowing that his travel happened before the Block came in and gave information very visibly and verbally (with his whistle). In this case the travel happened before the block so that was the correct call to be made.

[WeekendRef]

This has been an interesting thread....until WCB chimed in and now the thread has digressed into name calling and what he said on some other board . I really have learned alot from this board and I would like to continue to use it as a tool to further my officiating knowledge . Sifting thru page after page of one upmanship to one another just dampens my enthusiasm for this site . Lively discussion is one thing but IMO you guys are a little too much ...
RUT/WCB/JR - you guys are better then this . You all seem to have an excellent grasp on your sports !! Just leave it at that or email each other privately.
I promise to not make any other comments on this

[WindyCityBlue]

Sorry WeekendRef, but Rut brought this to this Board, not I.
He has twisted the facts and clouded the issues.

Jurassic -

I’ll try to keep this simple. Apparently you have a problem with the word “overrule”. Feel free to substitute “change”, “alter” or “make-correct” if it helps.

DonÂ’t pull any of that selective memory crap, youÂ’re just as guilty. Several members pointed out that you are playing word games with just one post. I clarified the issue and gave examples of what is acceptable. It seems that none of your basketball compadres are coming to your rescue here either. Amazing, no???

I believe that Canuckrefguy gave a fine example of another NCAA game where those referees found it within themselves to change/alter/overrule a call that was made. His post was made at 7:58 last night, but heÂ’s probably not aware that what he saw couldnÂ’t have happened because you say so. So, in answer to your question, yes calls are changed/altered/overruled by other officials at the NCAA and FED level. Should they be, YES!

Rut or should I say, Rit (Referee in Training) - It is hard t believe that you claim to officiate several sports at the Varsity level. You have the attention span of a pre-teen on a sugar buzz. Try to focus, man. I don’t care how many people you “talk” to at your “meetings”...imagination is a wonderful thing. Sports Illustrated and the SunTimes are wrong because you don’t agree with the message of their stories. Too bad, when the NCAA votes to institute Division 1 instant replay, I will be right back here showing the world what kind of fantasy you live.

Officiating is evolving whether you like it or not. Basketball is the next one on the radar screen - they already argue about the game clock, shots at the buzzer and whether a three point shot was legit. How long before they allow this scrutiny in the NBA or NCAA Tourney? Will it make us better officials? Will closeups on 60” Plasma screens showing the toes on the line make a difference? Will the next generation of officials be scared away because of these changes? The simple fact of all instant replay users is that they want to get the call right. This replay system is here because officials are afraid to overrule their partners, even when they are 100% sure of the call.