fumble, then penalty, then run

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by CT1

Last play of game with A trailing by 8 or less. The A coach would likely accept the penalty to give his team one more shot.

Fine, come up with an example where it actually makes sense to accept the penalty. Be that way.



And, IMHO, there should ALWAYS be a bean bag on a fumble. Even if it can't be an enforcement spot.

However, there are two times where I won't throw my bean bag on a fumble:
1) As an Umpire, if the ball carrier fumbles inside the 5 yard line going in. (I don't know if the wing has the ball in the end zone already or not, and I don't want my bean bag on the ground when the H and L are signaling a touchdown).
2) As an U, H, or L, when we have a fumble-or-incomplete-pass situation by the quarterback. I let the R live and die with his call... if he has a fumble, he needs to bean-bag that spot.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

... if he has a fumble, he needs to bean-bag that spot.

No he doesn't.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by whitehat

However, I still throw the bag even behind the LOS as it looks good and removes doubt as to whether we saw it or not.

Every single year this seems to come up in our assn for discussion. Apparently the folk at the state level want us to refrain from bagging a fumble behind the LOS, since it is meaningless with regard to enforcement. Despite the fact that the many (coaches, some players, some fans) know what a beanbag means, I don't see the problem with bagging one behind the LOS.

However, it is the state evaluators you have to please during those playoff assignments. And they have their way made up on how they want beanbags to be used. So, might as well do it their way all season so you are used to it come playoff time.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Despite the fact that the many (coaches, some players, some fans) know what a beanbag means, I don't see the problem with bagging one behind the LOS.

You don't drop a bean bag because there was a fumble. You drop a bean bag because you have a possible enforcement spot. Dropping a bean bag for a fumble 5 yards behind the LOS doesn't show everyone you are ruling fumble. It shows them you don't understand why the bean bag is used.

Another way this can get you into trouble is that fumble that gets recovered immediately at the same spot. You have the spot so the bean bag isn't really necessary. But if you rule fumble and don't drop the bean bag you'll get "you didn't drop your bean bag so you didn't rule fumble."

I don't see this as a big issue as long as you understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I don't see this as a big issue as long as you understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

Absolutely. You and I know it is for an enforcement spot.

But the gist of your post makes a good point. We also beanbag the end of a scrimmage kick for PSK enforcement. In that case, we aren't broadcasting a fumble. And if people think beanbag == fumble, this could cause confusion.

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Not bagging a fumble spot is on the evaluation form. And this spot might be used even if A recovers (the OP and the other thread as an example), especially if there's another foul (on either team) that you're not aware of.

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

[Reffing Rev.]

One of the things I cover in my pregame every week.
Bean Bag is for possible enforcements or violations.

My crew for some reason wants to bag muffed kicks. I always tell them no.

Last week 2nd half kickoff.
K kicks off short and before ball goes 10 yards or is touched by R or before R blocks K, K initiates contact, U has a flag down. Kick gets muffed by R80 and BJ threw a bean bag. Kick gets recovered by K. We're going to rekick after a 10 yard penalty. But R's coach wants to know why they can't decline the penalty and take the ball at the spot of first touching, because he thought that was why the bean bag was thrown.

So, this week's pregame will include another lecture on not bagging muffs.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

Sorry you took offense. To be completely honest, though --- credibility is built (or lost) over time. It was certainly not my intent to offend you on purpose --- but I'm being honest when I say that the story is very very hard to buy. Let me just say this ... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

In defense of xtremeump, not all associations are quite so well disciplined. I have two WH's I've worked with that have quirks that they absolutely refuse to budge on.

The first flags A for illegal substitution every single time more than one player runs over to the sidelines to talk to a coach, claiming it is an unauthorized conference. He refuses to allow the players to go to the sidelines during an official's timeout. This despite numerous conversations during association meetings and small group discussions. When I initially challenged him on this (after getting blasted by him during a halftime discussion when I told B they could come over to the sidelines during an injury), I acquiesced because he was significantly more experienced than I was. And despite the long discussions, whenever this comes up in pre-games (I occasionally bring it up) his response is always "No while you are working on my crew."

The second absolutely refuses to accept flags for illegal use of the hands by B on a receiver. It is either a personal foul or nothing. I've brought this one up before on this board. This WH has made clear he will _always_ wave off such a flag.

And both of these guys continue to be WH's in our association. And always during discussion, they are corrected and keep silent. But come again Friday night, they ignore the entire discussion.

Not all associations are quite so well administered.

[ajmc]

When did it become our responsibility for avoiding total misconceptions others, who have no business eavesdropping on conversations, or actions, intended solely for other game officials?

Bean bags are dropped to alert/remind ourselves, or our crew mates, of certain things, andy are not intended to communicate with coaches, spectators or announcers who may choose to involve themselves in communications not intended for them.

It's the same reason Referees don't stick their head into a huddle and suggest what plays may not be working.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by ajmc

When did it become our responsibility for avoiding total misconceptions others, who have no business eavesdropping on conversations, or actions, intended solely for other game officials?

Bean bags are dropped to alert/remind ourselves, or our crew mates, of certain things, andy are not intended to communicate with coaches, spectators or announcers who may choose to involve themselves in communications not intended for them.

It's the same reason Referees don't stick their head into a huddle and suggest what plays may not be working.

Wow...I was thinking almost the exact same thing. And actually, since when would a coach's interpretation of an official's action be of any concern either way? They typically think there's a hold on every play when his team is on defense and he's 50+ yards away.
And for the record...our crew has always bagged a fumble anywhere. Maybe not the status quo everywhere, but....

[xtremeump]

Where in any NFHS Publications does it say to bag all fumbles ? I would bring it up if I knew where it is. Thanks

[HLin NC]

Try page 40 of the NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL.

B. If there is a fumble, covering official should:
1. Mark yard line of fumble with bean bag if beyond line of scrimmage.

[xtremeump]

Thanks, is that it ?

[OKREF]

What about the one time you would bean bag the spot of an interception?