fumble, then penalty, then run

[whitehat]

Situation:
LOS is A 35. A1 runs to the 50, where his FM gets ranked, he fumbles and A2 picks up ball and runs to B20 and is tackled. Bean bag and flag are dropped at the 50 for the FM and marking spot of fumble.

Penalty options?

[maven]

I don't know what 'ranked' means in this context, but A can accept or decline the FM penalty.

The basic spot is the end of the related run, which is the 50. In general, including this play, fouls by the defense are enforced from the basic spot.

So A can accept the penalty, 1/10 at B-35, clock on the ready (assuming "tackled" = "tackled inbounds").

Or they can decline the penalty, 1/10 at B-20, clock on the ready.

[jTheUmp]

A will decline the penalty for the Facemask, and accept the result of the play.

1st and 10 for A at the B-20.

A could also accept the penalty from the basic spot: the end of the related run at the 50 yard line, giving them first and 10 from the B-45 (for a 5-yard FM) or from the B-30 (for a 15-yard FM), but I don't see any sane Team A coach choosing that option.

All of these are assuming that, if we're operating under FED rules, the run and/or penalty enforcement places the ball beyond the line-to-gain, as there is no AFD provision for FM fouls in FED.

[SamG]

I don't know the rules (I'm a fan, not an official), but I thought the offense couldn't advance a fumble. Or does that only apply to NCAA or NFL?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SamG

I don't know the rules (I'm a fan, not an official), but I thought the offense couldn't advance a fumble. Or does that only apply to NCAA or NFL?

That would be incorrect. If the ball is fumbled anyone can advance a fumble except on 4th down in the NCAA (probably the NFL but not sure). And in the NCAA only the player with the ball that fumbled is restricted to advancing the ball. But on any other down if there is a fumble the anyone can advance. I think you might be confusing what happens on a fumble out of bounds that is fumbled forward which has to be brought back tot he spot of the fumble in NCAA and NFL rules. High school rules anyone in any situation can recover a fumble and advance it in all situations.

Peace

[SamG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That would be incorrect. If the ball is fumbled anyone can advance a fumble except on 4th down in the NCAA (probably the NFL but not sure). And in the NCAA only the player with the ball that fumbled is restricted to advancing the ball. But on any other down if there is a fumble the anyone can advance. I think you might be confusing what happens on a fumble out of bounds that is fumbled forward which has to be brought back tot he spot of the fumble in NCAA and NFL rules. High school rules anyone in any situation can recover a fumble and advance it in all situations.

Peace

Thank you for the clarification.

[whitehat]

"Y"anked (as in 15 yard FM) not "ranked" ;-)..sorry about the typo. And yes we are talking NF. I agree with the enforcements.
I bring it up simply becasue we don't often use or have occassion to use that bean bag as a spot of enforcement and we might easily just make this a "tack on" penatly from the end of the last run, instead of the related run where the fumble and penalty occurred. Nice work guys!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by whitehat

"Y"anked (as in 15 yard FM) not "ranked" ;-)..sorry about the typo. And yes we are talking NF. I agree with the enforcements.
I bring it up simply becasue we don't often use or have occassion to use that bean bag as a spot of enforcement and we might easily just make this a "tack on" penatly from the end of the last run, instead of the related run where the fumble and penalty occurred. Nice work guys!

Interesting ... almost every single time we bean bag, we do so because that's a possible spot of enforcement. I don't agree with the "not often" statement, and very much don't agree with the "might easily" part. At least ... not if you have done this very long.

[APG]

Originally Posted by SamG

I don't know the rules (I'm a fan, not an official), but I thought the offense couldn't advance a fumble. Or does that only apply to NCAA or NFL?

NFL: Only on fourth down and after the two minute warning...only the person who fumbles the ball can recover and advance it. This also plays during any try after a score.

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Interesting ... almost every single time we bean bag, we do so because that's a possible spot of enforcement. I don't agree with the "not often" statement, and very much don't agree with the "might easily" part. At least ... not if you have done this very long.

MD, just to clarify, we do use bean bags all the time: fumbles, end of kicks, momentum, etc. And, as you said, we do bean bag because it is a potential enforcement spot.

However, I have been officiating for 30 years and cannot remember more than a few times where we actualy needed to enforce from the bean bag spot on a fumble due to the way the play ended or when the penalty occurred. I have more often experienced bean bag spot enforcements in FC situations or scrimmage kick situations but seldom have I ever needed to use the bean bag spot from a fumble as an enforcemnt spot.

[xtremeump]

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

But that's only if the official withholding the bean bag is the same one who threw the flag, because how else would he know the foul was by the defense?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

A could also accept the penalty from the basic spot: the end of the related run at the 50 yard line, giving them first and 10 from the B-45 (for a 5-yard FM) or from the B-30 (for a 15-yard FM), but I don't see any sane Team A coach choosing that option.

Last play of game with A trailing by 8 or less. The A coach would likely accept the penalty to give his team one more shot.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Not bagging a fumble spot is on the evaluation form. And this spot might be used even if A recovers (the OP and the other thread as an example), especially if there's another foul (on either team) that you're not aware of.

[whitehat]

The only situation I can think of where throwing a bean bag might be unneccessary would be on a fumble by A behind the LOS. In that case if there is a foul during the loose ball, the spot of the fumble is irrelevant, it is a previous spot enforcement since it is a loose ball play (or if A fouls behind the previous spot then it is a spot foul). However, I still throw the bag even behind the LOS as it looks good and removes doubt as to whether we saw it or not.