Rules Question

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And he should be getting help from his wings in this case. I can see him thinking there is a reciever in the area, but his wing should have told no one was around. After all this call is not always made immediately.

Peace

Agreed...... many times this is a crew call.

[chapmaja]

Even worse, the play before the IG was another badly missed call by this crew.

I just watched the video of the second half. and this crew missed an illegal participation, or illegal substitution penalty on the previous play. One the play prior to the missed IG call, a BBR player hobbled off the field and a replacement came on right before the ball is snapped. The problem is that meant 12 players were on the field, and all participated in the play.

Here is another question. When a player comes off the bench in high school, do they have to come inside the 9 yard marks prior to lining up in position on the play. The player who comes off the bench (12th player), only gets about 5 yards into the field and takes a position as a WR on the LOS. That meant 5 guys in the backfield, and 7 on the LOS. The linesman on the near side was already walking down field when the snap occurred.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Even worse, the play before the IG was another badly missed call by this crew.

I just watched the video of the second half. and this crew missed an illegal participation, or illegal substitution penalty on the previous play. One the play prior to the missed IG call, a BBR player hobbled off the field and a replacement came on right before the ball is snapped. The problem is that meant 12 players were on the field, and all participated in the play.

Here is another question. When a player comes off the bench in high school, do they have to come inside the 9 yard marks prior to lining up in position on the play. The player who comes off the bench (12th player), only gets about 5 yards into the field and takes a position as a WR on the LOS. That meant 5 guys in the backfield, and 7 on the LOS. The linesman on the near side was already walking down field when the snap occurred.

So the replacement was already in when the first player hobbled off?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Adam

So the replacement was already in when the first player hobbled off?

No, the replacement did not enter the field until after the injured player hobbled off the field. The incoming player stepped onto the field, roughly half way between the sideline and the numbers and immediately took a position on the LOS.

Does NFHS still have the 9 yard mark rule that was put into effect in 2005? IIRC the rule required all offensive players to be momentarily inside the 9 yard mark between the RFP and the snap. This would be designed to prevent exactly what happened on the play. An offensive player enters the field and is uncovered by a defensive player, and thus influences the play. The player that came onto the field, went deep and drew coverage from a defensive back which allowed another receiver to cut underneath catch the ball and get OOB to stop the clock.

The biggest issue was still the missed 12 men on the field on that play anyway.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And he should be getting help from his wings in this case. I can see him thinking there is a reciever in the area, but his wing should have told no one was around. After all this call is not always made immediately.

Peace

I would agree. It looks like the referee immediately points to #61 being in the area. The problem is #61 is not, and if I understand the rules correctly can NEVER be an eligible receiver.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by asdf

Agreed...... many times this is a crew call.

The most important thing would be to get the call correct. I can't see any way they missed this call when no eligible number is within 25 yards of the play. I can see the referee just seeing a 6 or 1 on the player closest to the landing point, but 2 officials both looking at the area should be able to see no eligible player was in the area, thus the flag should have been thrown.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

No, the replacement did not enter the field until after the injured player hobbled off the field. The incoming player stepped onto the field, roughly half way between the sideline and the numbers and immediately took a position on the LOS.

Does NFHS still have the 9 yard mark rule that was put into effect in 2005? IIRC the rule required all offensive players to be momentarily inside the 9 yard mark between the RFP and the snap. This would be designed to prevent exactly what happened on the play. An offensive player enters the field and is uncovered by a defensive player, and thus influences the play. The player that came onto the field, went deep and drew coverage from a defensive back which allowed another receiver to cut underneath catch the ball and get OOB to stop the clock.

The biggest issue was still the missed 12 men on the field on that play anyway.

I'm confused...you say the injured player got off the field and his replacement got on the field outside the numbers. Had the injured player already been replaced by someone else and the late guy wasn't needed? Or are you saying he wasn't replaced yet (even though he's on the sideline) since the replaced player did not get inside the numbers? Based on your description I have a foul for illegal formation on the guy not being inside the numbers but not for illegal substitution/participation. You could also have an illegal shift since he probably didn't get set before the snap.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

No, the replacement did not enter the field until after the injured player hobbled off the field. The incoming player stepped onto the field, roughly half way between the sideline and the numbers and immediately took a position on the LOS.

Does NFHS still have the 9 yard mark rule that was put into effect in 2005? IIRC the rule required all offensive players to be momentarily inside the 9 yard mark between the RFP and the snap. This would be designed to prevent exactly what happened on the play. An offensive player enters the field and is uncovered by a defensive player, and thus influences the play. The player that came onto the field, went deep and drew coverage from a defensive back which allowed another receiver to cut underneath catch the ball and get OOB to stop the clock.

The biggest issue was still the missed 12 men on the field on that play anyway.

I'm just trying to figure out how they got 12? You said a replacement came in, and a player went out. That's normally 11.

Now, yes, there still is a requirement to get inside the 9s. It isn't always strictly enforced, especially if the player is covered, but it seems like he wasn't here, so they may have missed one.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm just trying to figure out how they got 12? You said a replacement came in, and a player went out. That's normally 11.

Now, yes, there still is a requirement to get inside the 9s. It isn't always strictly enforced, especially if the player is covered, but it seems like he wasn't here, so they may have missed one.

They had 12 players on the field after the previous play. Unfortunately the video is edited so I can't see if they had 12 on the previous play, or if prior to this play 2 came in and 1 came out, then they made a late change with the injured player and his replacement.

The full video is at the link below. The interesting stuff starts just past 37:30 or so.

Warren (MI) De LaSalle Collegiate @ Birmingham (MI) Brother Rice 2013 - YouTube

[HLin NC]

More importantly than airing this crew's laundry to The Official Forum, does their supervisor have all this info?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

More importantly than airing this crew's laundry to The Official Forum, does their supervisor have all this info?

I'm sure they do, assuming they are assigned through an association, or conference, and not scheduled by the schools themselves. Not all officials in Michigan are assigned by an officials assigner or conference. Some schools still schedule their owns crews, although it is highly unlikely this happened in this case.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

They had 12 players on the field after the previous play. Unfortunately the video is edited so I can't see if they had 12 on the previous play, or if prior to this play 2 came in and 1 came out, then they made a late change with the injured player and his replacement.

The full video is at the link below. The interesting stuff starts just past 37:30 or so.

Warren (MI) De LaSalle Collegiate @ Birmingham (MI) Brother Rice 2013 - YouTube

Definitely 12 on the field at the snap and the receiver who came in definitely did not get inside the numbers. Not sure if this was an intent to deceive but it should definitely be a foul in this situation for illegal formation and illegal participation. The formation foul becomes irrelevant at that point since since IP is a bigger foul. My guess is the crew did not get a chance to get a count so they got away with one.

We have no idea on the clock for the last play but based on the time for the IG play (that was also missed) there should probably be 2-3 seconds for the last play. I would have started the clock on the RFP but absent the IG call that's not an option.

Go back to the play before the IP/IF. They also badly missed a forward progress spot that should have started the clock on the RFP as well. What about the mechanic of the L releasing before the ball was snapped? And the H starting on the field?

[Matt-MI]

Both schools are part of the Catholic League. Officials for their games are usually assigned by the Archdiocese of Detroit.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Matt-MI

Both schools are part of the Catholic League. Officials for their games are usually assigned by the Archdiocese of Detroit.

Are they assigned by the league or does the league contract with an assigner to assign games for the CHSL? I know many leagues do contract with assigners to assign officials, I work as an assigner in a different sport.

[Matt-MI]

The athletic director for the archdiocese is a registered assigner.