Kick, receive or defer revisited

[CT1]

The only two options I give are "defer / receive", or "receive / defer", depending on what his coach has told me prior to the game.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think at the varsity level this is rather dangerous to change their answer to what we think it should be. If they are not aware of their choices that is not really our concern. I would ask them to clarify their position because it is an unusual choice, but I do not think we should make that choice for them. I would ask a captain if that is really what they want or understand the choice, but I would not just ignore them. The other team just heard what they said too and if you do something that puts them at a disadvantage, they have every right to call you on what you did. I would make sure they they understand that if they kick they will not have a choice in the second half, but I would not just make the decision for them. After all coaches do outthink themselves and make silly decisions sometimes too. Heck and NFL coach once took the wind in OT and never saw the ball.

Peace

I ask the winning capt. if he wants to chose now or defer his choice to the 2nd half. If either capt. says they want to kick or defend a goal, I repeat what they said and if they say it again I go with it. My view is that these are big boys in a varsity game and if they are capts. they should know what to do. If I were the coach I'd coach the capt. to choose either defer or receive, no other option (unless it is really windy). I've already had a varsity capt. screw it up this year. If the coach hasn't coached the kid properly so be it. Unfortunately it is equivalent to a turnover.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Check your rule book and try again. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

Hey, not my fault the guy tries to go off menu with "defend" without indicating a goal to defend. The word has no official meaning in that context, but I'd say my interpret'n is as good as any. Can we take it he didn't have his mouth guard in when he said it?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I ask the winning capt. if he wants to chose now or defer his choice to the 2nd half. If either capt. says they want to kick or defend a goal, I repeat what they said and if they say it again I go with it. My view is that these are big boys in a varsity game and if they are capts. they should know what to do. If I were the coach I'd coach the capt. to choose either defer or receive, no other option (unless it is really windy). I've already had a varsity capt. screw it up this year. If the coach hasn't coached the kid properly so be it. Unfortunately it is equivalent to a turnover.

I have no problem with that way to give the options. I just want to make sure they understand the choices but it is up to them to know what to choose, that is all. Again we do not have kids screw this up normally and certainly if a kid said "kick" I would try to make sure that is their real choice.

Peace

[Rich]

I am not going to let a captain make this mistake. Of course, I ask the coach during the pregame coach/referee conference what he wants if they win the toss. If a coach says kick, I'll make sure he really wants that choice.

I don't believe in teaching lessons or picking up the dirty end of the stick. The kind of craphouse that comes from being a stickler here is something that is easily avoided.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I am not going to let a captain make this mistake. Of course, I ask the coach during the pregame coach/referee conference what he wants if they win the toss. If a coach says kick, I'll make sure he really wants that choice.

I don't believe in teaching lessons or picking up the dirty end of the stick. The kind of craphouse that comes from being a stickler here is something that is easily avoided.

I do not think it has anything to do with teaching lessons. The rules are clear what their choices are, we need to just let them make their choices. I also did not say to never clarify, but at some point they are to know what they want. It is like not granting a timeout in basketball. It is not our job to save them from themselves and go out of our way to do it.

I also think we need to stop worrying about what a coach is going to think. Teach your kids better and this will never happen. BTW, coaches are at out meetings to they have way to make sure this choice is made properly (state rules and option).

Peace

[bisonlj]

Had a game earlier this year involving a prep academy playing only their second year of varsity games. We asked coach what he would like to do if they win the toss and he said "kick". I asked to verify he wants to kick and he says yes. I then ask if he wants to kick in both halves and he said, "no. If we kick in the first half then we get the ball first in the second half." I said "if you want the ball in the second half you need to defer your choice to the second half." His response, "ok...is that a new rule"?

This is the same coach who was stunned (in game 5) that he couldn't line up #42 at RG and #81 at LT on regular scrimmage plays. Fortunately his opponent was fine with it since he knew they were short on players. They did an onside kick to start the game and recovered it! The game was postponed after 6 plays due to lightening.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think it has anything to do with teaching lessons. The rules are clear what their choices are, we need to just let them make their choices. I also did not say to never clarify, but at some point they are to know what they want. It is like not granting a timeout in basketball. It is not our job to save them from themselves and go out of our way to do it.

I also think we need to stop worrying about what a coach is going to think. Teach your kids better and this will never happen. BTW, coaches are at out meetings to they have way to make sure this choice is made properly (state rules and option).

Peace

You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same.

All I know is that the teams in my game will *never* start out in a way other than what they actually want. And the captains are important, but I typically ask the coaches what they want, both for the coin toss and also for penalty enforcement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same.

All I know is that the teams in my game will *never* start out in a way other than what they actually want. And the captains are important, but I typically ask the coaches what they want, both for the coin toss and also for penalty enforcement.

When we have these discussions, I am really not trying to convince you or anyone what you should do. Ultimately each of us has to decide what works for them and why. I just think that officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to do if we apply the rules that are clearly stated. I have been ultra-successful doing the things I talk about here and so has my crew as these are not just my ideals or experiences brought to the crew philosophy. Our Referee worked 2 State Finals as Referee long before he got to my current crew for his third and would not handle this as you have stated by saying "never" at the varsity level for sure. It is very unlikely we would ever have a captain "live" with that choice or make that choice without some challenge or questioning from the Referee. As I said, the other captains hear their choice and if we "save" the team from themselves and make the choice for them, we will be seen much worse and predetermining the outcome. I would much rather be in a situation where I followed a rule, then seen as doing something nefarious that affects the game.

I equate this to what we do in basketball when a timeout is requested. Yes we can ignore a timeout request when a team is out, but that means that we do so with the other team hearing such request and thinking we did not do our job. The funny thing at the college jamboree I worked on Sunday is that very thing happen and we gave a team a technical foul for calling an unused timeout. And the coach of the team that was given the T claimed, "You should have helped him out." But there was not much he could say when I stated, "The official did not grant the request, but there is only so much you can do when he is yelling at you." The coach obviously backed off and got the overall point. If we did not give the technical in that situation, the other coach would have claimed we ignored an obvious rule. We cannot win either way, so why not do what the rule says?

Peace

[bcl1127]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think at the varsity level this is rather dangerous to change their answer to what we think it should be. If they are not aware of their choices that is not really our concern. I would ask them to clarify their position because it is an unusual choice, but I do not think we should make that choice for them. I would ask a captain if that is really what they want or understand the choice, but I would not just ignore them. The other team just heard what they said too and if you do something that puts them at a disadvantage, they have every right to call you on what you did. I would make sure they they understand that if they kick they will not have a choice in the second half, but I would not just make the decision for them. After all coaches do outthink themselves and make silly decisions sometimes too. Heck and NFL coach once took the wind in OT and never saw the ball.

Peace

+1 agreed here.

[Trap]

We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss.

Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive.

To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When we have these discussions, I am really not trying to convince you or anyone what you should do. Ultimately each of us has to decide what works for them and why. I just think that officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to do if we apply the rules that are clearly stated. I have been ultra-successful doing the things I talk about here and so has my crew as these are not just my ideals or experiences brought to the crew philosophy. Our Referee worked 2 State Finals as Referee long before he got to my current crew for his third and would not handle this as you have stated by saying "never" at the varsity level for sure. It is very unlikely we would ever have a captain "live" with that choice or make that choice without some challenge or questioning from the Referee. As I said, the other captains hear their choice and if we "save" the team from themselves and make the choice for them, we will be seen much worse and predetermining the outcome. I would much rather be in a situation where I followed a rule, then seen as doing something nefarious that affects the game.

I equate this to what we do in basketball when a timeout is requested. Yes we can ignore a timeout request when a team is out, but that means that we do so with the other team hearing such request and thinking we did not do our job. The funny thing at the college jamboree I worked on Sunday is that very thing happen and we gave a team a technical foul for calling an unused timeout. And the coach of the team that was given the T claimed, "You should have helped him out." But there was not much he could say when I stated, "The official did not grant the request, but there is only so much you can do when he is yelling at you." The coach obviously backed off and got the overall point. If we did not give the technical in that situation, the other coach would have claimed we ignored an obvious rule. We cannot win either way, so why not do what the rule says?

Peace

Comparing this to a timeout request in basketball is like comparing apples and kumquats.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Comparing this to a timeout request in basketball is like comparing apples and kumquats.

I disagree, because both request can be made in the light of day in front of many people (coach included). Heck a coin flip might be heard on a loud speaker. You have the realistic potential to tick off the other team by ignoring their words.

Peace

[glyphrunner]

"Team A, you have won the toss. You may defer your choice to the second half, or you may receive, kick, or defend a goal. What is your choice?"

I have never had a problem with responses when I pose it this way. Only at the junior high / middle school level will I question multiple times their choice other than defer/receive. You want to kick the ball to them? Are you sure you want to give them the ball?

I have had only three instances in 17 years where the captain chose anything other than defer or receive.

• One time was with a completely uncoached JV captain. He insisted on defending because of the wind.
• The second time was a team (choosing defend) that was an absolute monster on defense. They actually had more points on defense than they did on offense.
• The third time was a team (choosing defend) with a strong passing game wanting to choose the wind.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Trap

We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss.

Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive.

To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying.

Why not ask him if he wants to "receive, kick, or defend an end", rather than "what do you want"?