OBR 4.09(b) revisited.

[Gee]

As we all know, the play under 4.09(b) gives the exception to the rule that a run cannot score after three outs but is it a valid exception?

"Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base."

Of course the runner on third was forced to advance at the time of the walk but while the ball stayed in play subsequent action removed that force and ended the inning PRIOR TO the run scoring. Seems to me that once the force was removed it became a time play and the run would NOT score. What am I missing?

[douglas childress]

Nothing you are right the run would not score. it would be no different than a player getting caught in a run down and getting taged out before a runner crossed home plate

[Striker991]

On a bases loaded walk with two out, the run scores, regardless of ensuing action. The base is an award that occurred prior to the third out. Of course, there are exceptions to that (abandonment being one), but if the third out is caused by a player advancing beyond his award, the run still counts. This is not a timing play. The force was created by the award. The award was to third. The award to third causes the previous runner on third to advance. Action after the award does not cancel the award.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gee
As we all know, the play under 4.09(b) gives the exception to the rule that a run cannot score after three outs but is it a valid exception?

"Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base."

Of course the runner on third was forced to advance at the time of the walk but while the ball stayed in play subsequent action removed that force and ended the inning PRIOR TO the run scoring. Seems to me that once the force was removed it became a time play and the run would NOT score. What am I missing?

1) How does this "remove the force?"

Note that 7.08(e) says that a force is removed when a following runner is put out ON A FORCE PLAY.

2) If you still think it's an exception, so what? That's the whole point of many of the comments / plays.

[Gee]

You wrote,

"On a bases loaded walk with two out, the run scores, regardless of ensuing action."

But if the runner fails to touch home, in passing, among other things, he could be appealed for the out by the defense, so "Regardless of ensuing action" won't cut it but that wasn't my point.

My point was, and you mentioned it when you wrote:

"The force was created by the award. The award was to third. The award to third causes the previous runner on third to advance."

Of course I agree with the fact that the FORCE was created by the award but the award was to the batter and all consecutive runners and once R2 was put out, it removes R3 as a consecutive runner as well as him being forced home
just like there was no R2 when the play started. You must remember that the ball is still (a)live during this whole play.

Take a similar play R3 and R1, two outs. Batter grounds into the hole SS makes a great play and throws to second too late. R1 beats the play but slides past the base and is tagged out for the third out. Since R1 beat the play he has removed the force and R3 would score only if he scored before the tag out, I.E timing play. It puzzles me. G.

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The base is an award that occurred prior to the third out. Of course, there are exceptions to that (abandonment being one), but if the third out is caused by a player advancing beyond his award, the run still counts. This is not a timing play. c Action after the award does not cancel the award. [/B][/QUOTE]

[Gee]

Bob Jenkins wrote:

1) How does this "remove the force?"

Note that 7.08(e) says that a force is removed when a following runner is put out ON A FORCE PLAY.

2) If you still think it's an exception, so what? That's the whole point of many of the comments / plays.

--------------------
So what 7.08(e) says is that to remove the force on a preceding runner a following runner must be FORCED out.

Obviously I have always thought that a force was removed once a following runner was retired for any reason. Problem solved. Thanks. G.

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1) How does this "remove the force?"

Note that 7.08(e) says that a force is removed when a following runner is put out ON A FORCE PLAY.

2) If you still think it's an exception, so what? That's the whole point of many of the comments / plays.



[Edited by Gee on Jul 8th, 2003 at 02:33 PM]

[Striker991]

On the award, ALL runners advance. That means that all runners advance without liability to be put out to the awarded base. R2 is awarded third without liability to be put out. This means, follow me closely now, that R3 is awarded home without liability. Now, if R2 overruns 3rd and is put out AFTER having taken possession of his awarded base and it is the third out, it doesn't undo the prior award. The force is NOT removed for purposes of the award. Run scores.


You quoted me, then wrote:

(Me) "On a bases loaded walk with two out, the run scores, regardless of ensuing action."

(You) "But if the runner fails to touch home, in passing, among other things, he could be appealed for the out by the defense, so "Regardless of ensuing action" won't cut it but that wasn't my point."

Obviously you aren't paying attention, because my next statement was, "Of course, there are exceptions to that (abandonment being one),"

So, it is obvious that you are either a) trolling or b) not reading carefully, or c) really that dense. No matter how you feel about it, the clarification as written stands and that is how we will continue to call it. It is pretty clear, and the reasons for it are obvious.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Gee
My point was, and you mentioned it when you wrote:

"The force was created by the award. The award was to third. The award to third causes the previous runner on third to advance."

Of course I agree with the fact that the FORCE was created by the award but the award was to the batter and all consecutive runners and once R2 was put out, it removes R3 as a consecutive runner as well as him being forced home
just like there was no R2 when the play started. You must remember that the ball is still (a)live during this whole play.

Take a similar play R3 and R1, two outs. Batter grounds into the hole SS makes a great play and throws to second too late. R1 beats the play but slides past the base and is tagged out for the third out. Since R1 beat the play he has removed the force and R3 would score only if he scored before the tag out, I.E timing play. It puzzles me. G.

George, I think you're a little close to this one. Let me see if I can help. Consider this play:

R1, R2, 0 outs. Batter walks on Ball 4, but R1 was overzealous and slides by 2nd base where he is tagged out. Is R2 now in jeopardy before he reaches 3rd base?

I think the answer to that question is an unequivocal and resounding NO. R2's advance to 3rd is protected, same as R3's advance to home is protected on your original play.

Possession of a base is not normally gained until it is legally acquired by the running advancing to and touching the base, but with an awarded base so long as the runner who was awarded that base subsequently fulfills all the legal requirements the base is actually acquired at the moment of the award, when the force was still in effect. That's why R3 gets to keep his score.

It would be the same as saying that an appeal for a missed base cannot be a force out. It CAN, because the miss is considered to have occurred while the force was still in effect.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Gee]

Still learning. Thanks and regards. G.