Kick, receive or defer revisited

[MD Longhorn]

Robert - how many times have you been the referee and had a kid choose kick?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a player chooses to kick instead of defer and the referee goes with it without further clarification. It was, in a word, ugly. I haven't seen an entire coaching staff that PO'd in a long time. Needless to say, they kicked off the second half from their own 25.

Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want.

I agree with that last paragraph totally. It has happen to me in a high school game and we had no problems. I told the coach, "He insisted and we went with his choice." Of course the coaches were mad, but guess what, they realized they needed to teach better. And again this is often prevented in our state because coaches are to be at the coin flip for a "Sportsmanship Meeting" and can stay for the actual coin flip. We can use the coaches as second ears to get the right choice. When this situation happened with me, it was before that procedural change.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich

I may work about 1 youth game (on average) a season. I haven't worked any this year.

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

Just curious, but what's your point here?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

That's all well and good but the majority of officials here are working Varsity or Subvarsity scholastic football. Knowing the forum audience is important.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Just curious, but what's your point here?

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

Oh. OK. So ALL OF THE REST OF US are at the wrong forum. Only you are in the right place.

Perhaps you'd be better off finding (or starting) a forum about youth football. The rules for youth football are different all over the country. I (and likely many other officials here) have little or no interest in visiting a site to discuss rules and situations when the rules would not apply to our own situations - ever. It may be the majority of football... but we have no common frame of reference as officials when you're talking about youth football. The topic of ALMOST every post is based on NFL, NCAA, or FED rules - the "default" as you call it, should be one of those.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

Statistically in what way? The average poster here is not an average youth official. We may have people who work youth games, but the "average" poster here, I would guess, is a HS official. Working NFHS or NCAA rules.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Perhaps you'd be better off finding (or starting) a forum about youth football.

I linked to a thread in one, guess you didn't notice.

The rules for youth football are different all over the country.

True, but irrelevant to this discussion, because we're already assuming the same choices to start the halves as in the current major codes. In this case it's not a rules difference at issue, just that a poster upthread wrote that the game tactics are often different from what you'd expect at higher levels.

[Adam]

Personally, i would be less inclined to allow the captains to screw this up in a youth FB game, not more.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by maven

Certain mistakes we won't let them make.

My crew always asks the head coach what he'd like to do if he wins (defer or receive), and which way he'd like to kick. So we know what the answer is before the captain gives it.

I used to ask the HC that for youth contests and young HC's....nowadays, they all say..."They'll know what I want them to do when they get out there". I kid you not...I have had this 4 times this year up here in WI....3 of the 4 in the Sheboygan area....maybe something in the water.

Once in a varsity game and the other 3 in JV contests. I watched a crew a few years back "let" the winner of the toss kick twice to start both halves, and you are setting yourself up with a recipe for disaster and a long night if you don't just oblige and help the spokesman with a simple correction, IMO. You may teach a coach and players a heck of a lesson....but I like to start my games off on a good note. I have corrected A LOT of coaches on this over the years, and never has one complained...usually it is instead followed up with a "Thank you, sir."

I felt compelled to add this after seeing the youth football banter. I worked AAYFL youth here in WI for 16 years along with my hs contests during that same time. Youth had some weight adaptations and point structures and a few odds and ends that differed...but the WIAA adaptation of the FED rules oversaw/covered everything else. I am fairly good friends with 9 or 10 HS and youth officials across the country from coast to coast and they all did or still do youth and those programs abide by NFHS rules with minor league adaptations....other than the State of Texas, and I think Pennsylvania tweaks theirs a bit. My experience here is that maybe 10-15% still do youth football games fairly regularly and the majority is high school officials with another 30 to 40% doing college, and 10-15% doing pro, semi-pro, or using pro rules....just a guess.


Good day.

[Robert Goodman]

One thing that affects the number of official-hours at the various levels is the number of officials per game. The higher you go, the larger the crew.

But as to attitudes regarding letting the captains make their mistakes, I've got to ask, is the game for the children to play, or are they our (adults') playthings?

[voiceoflg]

Here is an interesting wrinkle I saw Friday night on this topic. Game tied at 35 at the end of regulation. Instead of sending out captains, the head coaches went out for the OT coin toss. I have never seen that before.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by voiceoflg

Here is an interesting wrinkle I saw Friday night on this topic. Game tied at 35 at the end of regulation. Instead of sending out captains, the head coaches went out for the OT coin toss. I have never seen that before.

Why didn't they just arm wrestle for the win and do away with those pesky players entirely?

[bigjohn]

http://owvfoa.com/ohio%202011%20playoff%20bulletin.pdf

18. R & Toss: Catch the coin or flip the coin again.