defer call

[aclehn]

When working a two man crew is there ever a situation where you defer to the other umpire for a call. Or do you just make the call, then ask for Help? I had this situation, two man crew, I was the field umpire. Runner on third one out. A slow ground ball hit to right side first baseman fields the ball to his right bobbeling the ball. The pitcher and second baseman come over to cover bag. The first baseman with ball in glove dives to first to tag base with his glove. I get blocked by the pitcher and the first basemans body. Do I make the call anyway or defer to homeplate umpire?

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by aclehn

When working a two man crew is there ever a situation where you defer to the other umpire for a call. Or do you just make the call, then ask for Help?

Do not ask for help AFTER the call do it before the call.
Example; You are in the "C" slot with R2. R2 has a good lead and ball is hit to F6. It appears for a moment that F6 might throw to F4, so you hold your ground in case you need to make a call at second, but F6 looks R2 back and then fires to F3.

The throw is a bad one and either F3 has to make a "swipe" tag or he is stretching and you don't have a good look at the position of his feet. You can do either of 2 things at this point.

1. If it's a swipe tag, and you are unsure BEFORE you make call you can point to the PU to make the call or

2. In the case of the pulled foot, you need add'l info so you can ask the PU - "was his foot on the bag" and then YOU make the call.

In any event, the proper mechanic is to ask for assistance BEFORE you make the call not AFTERWARDS.

I had this situation, two man crew, I was the field umpire. Runner on third one out. A slow ground ball hit to right side first baseman fields the ball to his right bobbeling the ball. The pitcher and second baseman come over to cover bag. The first baseman with ball in glove dives to first to tag base with his glove. I get blocked by the pitcher and the first basemans body. Do I make the call anyway or defer to homeplate umpire?

This is a situation where you will normally be on your own. The PU's PRIME responsibility is to watch r3. Since the ball was a slow roller, there's a real good chance r3 will try and score, therefore, the PU has to watch R3 touch the plate. If the PU has enough time, he /she could be in a position to aid but I wouldn't count on it or assume it.

If your partner can't help you, then "sell" the call the best you can. Give an emphatic call either way.

Pete Booth

[Whowefoolin]

Also, be specific. If it is a swipe tag that might have gotten the base runner that you didn't see, ask your partner before you make the call, "Did you see a tag?"

Do not say, "What did you see?" This leaves it very open.

[brandda]

If you wait until after the call, you put your partner into the potentially unpleasant situation of having to overrule you. Some umpires have a problem with that as they do not wish to alientate the only friend they have on the diamond and will therefore go along with a call that they do not necessarily agree with.

One play, one call. Get the information you need before you make it.

[dani]

The play at first is the BU's. Make the call and don't give your partner the sh***y end of the stick.

Hopefully you will get it right and the coach stays in the dugout.

The PU is busy with R3. Make the call the best you can. If you aren't sure you may do two things. Either call safe or bang the out on timing. Either way it's your call to make. Make it and stick to it.
With a runner on third only you are probably in "B". From there move straight at the 45 ft line to get the best look you can. If there is too much complaining tell them to hire U3 and you will get a better look.

[ref5678]

I had a similar play come up in a pony game. I'm working with a partner that had just came out of an umpire clinic 10 min ago so he decided hed like to work the bases so heres the situation runner on first 1 out ball hit to the 2nd baseman instead of throwing to second he goes to first with throw all the while my partner is daydreaming. Now heres where it gets intresting the runner is clearly safe but my partner says before his call "i dont know" then calls the kid out so the first base coach turns to me and says i want to appeal that play so i go to my partner and say did u see that play at all and he says no i guessed so i say the runner was safe and that we should change the call and he says alright lets get the call right so i come out and say appeal is upheled runner is safe. Should i have handled this diffrently

[brandda]

The problem is that safe/out is a judgement call and therefore not an appealable play. Your partner can come to you to get help with his own call, but the coach cannot ask you to rule on his judgement call.

So, first, you need to tell the coach that he needs to go first to the ump who made the call and if that ump asks you for help, then you can give it. Then, when your partner comes to you you ask, "What did you see?". If he says, "I did not see it, I guessed", then the two of you need to agree that his call was either correct or not and make the ruling.

[Bfair]

I don't tell a coach to go to my partner...........

Memorize this phrase, it will help you in such situations:

If my partner needs help with his call, he'll ask me for it.

You are letting the the coach know:

• Who the call belongs to
  
• Who you will respond to
  
• That you won't respond to the coach
  
• You are willing to work as a team with your partner
  
• That your partner knows your are there if needed

You are keeping a poker face, not implying anything to him regarding your judgment or critique of the call. You are not enticing him to speak to your partner, or appearing that you are passing off getting involved. You are making it appear you have confidence in your partner's abilities to handle the situation. Let the coach decide if he wants to speak with your partner---don't send him there.

That phrase can be used in many occasions when players or coaches request opinions of you.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[brandda]

Freix - With all due respect, I disagree. If a coach comes to you to appeal your partner's judgement call, you've got to tell him, "Coach, that's not my call. You need to talk to my partner if you disagree with his call."

You cannot give the impression to the coach that you are willing to render judgement on your partner's call.

[echo]

Had one the other night. Here's the background info...small town hosting the LL (major boys)tourney. Not much else to do but go to the game.
Working a 4 man crew, I had a base. We had one close call at every base during the game. At 1st,2nd,and 3rd they were all pick offs. Unfortunately all the calls were against the same team. You would have thought they would have noticed the arm on the catcher. He has an accurate rocket.
The coach wanted to challenge the calls, did it correctly. Asked us to get counsel, we did, all is well. After the play at home the fans were hollering for a protest. The coach finally called time, stepped out but instead of walking to the PU he went to the fence, asked his fans to be quiet, talked to the PU and continued the game.
Both teams played very well, 1 run difference at the conclusion.
We had to be escorted out. This game would be more fun without parents.

[Marty Rogers]

The coach wanted to challenge the calls, did it correctly. Asked us to get counsel, we did, all is well.

How can a coach "correctly" challange judgement calls?
Why did three umpires agree to "ask for help" on these calls? No wonder many coaches want to "appeal" every play ever called against them. They are learning from situations like this. Requesting that the ump asks for a second opinion on a call he owns, after the call has already been made, is ridiculous. And, the umpire agreeing to it is even more ridiculoous. IMO

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by brandda
Freix - With all due respect, I disagree. If a coach comes to you to appeal your partner's judgement call, you've got to tell him, "Coach, that's not my call. You need to talk to my partner if you disagree with his call."

You cannot give the impression to the coach that you are willing to render judgement on your partner's call.

Actually, Dave, I simply say to the coach who is complaining, "Coach, that's my partner's call and if he needed help, he would have come to me before he made the call.". That usually quiets the coach and sends the messages that Freix was relating to. I do not agree with sending a complaining coach to my partner after a tough call. My partner may have enough to deal with from the call, no need to add to it. Besides, if the coach keeps complaining, I now have a lever to get rid of him and get him off my partner's back.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by echo
Had one the other night. Here's the background info...small town hosting the LL (major boys)tourney. Not much else to do but go to the game.
Working a 4 man crew, I had a base. We had one close call at every base during the game. At 1st,2nd,and 3rd they were all pick offs. Unfortunately all the calls were against the same team. You would have thought they would have noticed the arm on the catcher. He has an accurate rocket.
The coach wanted to challenge the calls, did it correctly. Asked us to get counsel, we did, all is well. After the play at home the fans were hollering for a protest. The coach finally called time, stepped out but instead of walking to the PU he went to the fence, asked his fans to be quiet, talked to the PU and continued the game.
Both teams played very well, 1 run difference at the conclusion.
We had to be escorted out. This game would be more fun without parents.

You worked on a 4 man crew and had to consult? How many times did you "consult" about a call? I can see why you had to be escorted out! And people wonder why I hate LL!!!!!

[BJ Moose]

As if that is a surprise