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Old Wed Jan 15, 2003, 10:55pm
KWH KWH is offline
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I realize a preliminary version of this was posted on this forum previously, however this version provides how the rule shall be written, So...

In no particular order of importance or rule reference, here is the basic information on the 2003 rules changes:


1) Using an illegal tee will now be penalized as using/having illegal equipment under 9-8-1h,


2) Rule 7-5-9a now reads…..”A players, when B touches the pass or last forward pass if more than one.”


3) Rule 8-2-4 is new….If during a touchdown scoring play, a foul by the opponent of the scoring team occurs, the scoring team may accept the result of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot. Rule 8-4-3 is also changed to add…..”or accepting the results of the play and having the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot.” This change applies to field goals; the rationale being that all fouls by the defense on scoring plays, TD, PAT or FG now carry some consequence. These changes will also be cross-referenced to 10-5-1d.


4) Rule 2-17-3 regarding clipping and blocking in the back is clarified but not changed.


5) And now for the biggie……there is now post-scrimmage kick (PSK) enforcement in HS football. The generic rule will read under 2-16-2h (definitions)….A post scrimmage kick (PSK) foul is an R foul that occurs on R’s side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick during a scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone and K does not have possession of the ball when the kick ends. PSK does not apply to a try. This change causes additional changes to other rules and definitions that I’m not going into because of their length. This new change does not create any exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with “clean hands,” but that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.


There are the usual points of emphasis and editorial changes that I’m not going to get into now. Just thought I’d get your juices flowing in the off season.
This should also create some good off season dialouge!
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 01:01am
KWH KWH is offline
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Cool Penalty Enforcement???

Ok, 2003 NFHS Rules

1) K's ball 4th and 16 on the K15.
2) After K-9's punt has crossed the neutral zone expanded and is still in flight, R-2 is flagged for an "Illegal Block in the Back" at the K40.
3) The ball hits the ground at the R45 and while it is bouncing around K-7 is flagged for an "Illegal Block in the Back" at the K45.
4) Then, R-1 scoops up the untouched ball at the 50 and advances to the K30 where he is downed.

You make the call!





[Edited by KWH on Jan 16th, 2003 at 06:15 AM]
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 08:07am
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Re: Penalty Enforcement???

Quote:
Originally posted by KWH
Ok, 2003 NFHS Rules

1) K's ball 4th and 16 on the K15.
2) After K-9's punt has crossed the neutral zone expanded and is still in flight, R-2 is flagged for an "Illegal Block in the Back" at the K40.
3) The ball hits the ground at the R45 and while it is bouncing around K-7 is flagged for an "Illegal Block in the Back" at the K45.
4) Then, R-1 scoops up the untouched ball at the 50 and advances to the K30 where he is downed.

You make the call!
I'll give it a shot with my VERY limited knowledge of PSK. If the announcers can do it, so can I

This is my guess at is.

We have a PSK foul on R so I'm assuming this means R got the ball with "clean hands". The enforcement spot for the PSK foul is either going to be the end of the kick (or, depending upon the action, the spot of the foul????). K's foul complicates matters a little and the rest of the action is unimportant. If R wants to keep the ball, the must decline K's penalty and R's penalty will be enforced from the end of the kick. (Where R gained possession??)

If R accepts K's foul, we have a double-foul ??? and replay of the down???

Can't wait to actually get the rulebook. How'd I do? I'm using my game sense to answer.








[Edited by mikesears on Jan 16th, 2003 at 07:25 AM]
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 09:05am
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Mike,
Try to resist using the term "R got the ball with clean hands" as in actuallity they did not.

I'm going to use a portion of an NCAA definition, so fill in the actually NF equivalent for this, that portion is that we apply PSK to team-R/Bs foul was more than three yards beyond the NZ. If their foul did not meet that portion of the definition, then PSK would not apply.

That's whay I say to forget the clean hands stuff during the scrimmage kick. A team R/B foul 3 or more yards downfield while the kick is in the air is most certainly would not be clean hands, but that doesn't matter for PSK

Your answer looks correct. The basic spot for PSK is the spot where the kick ends (BAG it).
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 09:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Theisey
Mike,
Try to resist using the term "R got the ball with clean hands" as in actuallity they did not.

I'm going to use a portion of an NCAA definition, so fill in the actually NF equivalent for this, that portion is that we apply PSK to team-R/Bs foul was more than three yards beyond the NZ. If their foul did not meet that portion of the definition, then PSK would not apply.

That's whay I say to forget the clean hands stuff during the scrimmage kick. A team R/B foul 3 or more yards downfield while the kick is in the air is most certainly would not be clean hands, but that doesn't matter for PSK

Your answer looks correct. The basic spot for PSK is the spot where the kick ends (BAG it).
Thanks. Many other officials and I are going to need to spend some time understanding PSK enforcement and these types of exercises are very good for me personally.

Am I correct in stating that if R wanted to accept K's foul (during the kick), it would be a double-foul and the down would be replayed?

Is the PSK spot just another SPOT on the field?

I realize it may be difficult to answer because the NFHS doesn't have the rule wording out yet, but maybe your NCAA experience can help me understand this.

I am very grateful for any/all help you have already given and additional help you can give to me.

Thanks!

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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 10:16am
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PSK will not be too much of a problem to understand and apply.

Yes, in your example a replay could result if Team-R decided that accepting PSK was not in their best interest. Can't say that I've seen this happen, but I'm sure it has.

The PSK spot is just another name for the basic spot for the 3-and-1 or all-but-1 to be applied. It's marked via a bean bag.

Lets hope they put some decent case book plays into the book or on their interpretation section on the web.

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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 11:25am
JMN JMN is offline
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Guys, A little help here.

I certainly don't know PSK, but why wouldn't this be an offseting, live ball foul situation. Take it back to the K15 (previous spot) and kick it again?

Why does the PSK rule alter enforcement since both teams fouled during the kick? Someone posted that PSK may have an affect on the Basic Spot for enforcement, but this looks like it actually changes the enforcement.

Someone please enlighten me. Or maybe I just need a little more game sense!

Thanks in advance!!
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 11:31am
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OK, for my sake, lets begin basic then work up to the crazy ones.

Take out the K-7 ill. block.

So now, we have a punt crosses expanded nz (assume ball is 3 yds away) then we have the ill block in back by R-2 at the R40.

R then catches the punt at R20, runs to K30 tackle.
We now have PSK foul at R40, possesion b y R at R20, ball is now resting at K30.

The basic spot would be R20 (psk) correct??? So now we have R ball 1/10 from R10 correct???? The other spots are not needed.

Please tell me if this is correct. If so, then I can concentrate on the foul by K
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Theisey
PSK will not be too much of a problem to understand and apply.

Yes, in your example a replay could result if Team-R decided that accepting PSK was not in their best interest. Can't say that I've seen this happen, but I'm sure it has.

The PSK spot is just another name for the basic spot for the 3-and-1 or all-but-1 to be applied. It's marked via a bean bag.

Lets hope they put some decent case book plays into the book or on their interpretation section on the web.

The way the rule was before PSK is that the basic spot for penalty enforcement for any loose ball play (including legal kicks) was the previous spot.

The change simply means the basic spot for penalty enforcement for any foul by R beyond the expanded neutral zone during a scrimmage kick down that ...... fill in the blank with the other criteria here ..... is now the end of the kick. Then apply the all-but-one/3-and-1 principle.

All that they've done is shifted WHERE the enforcement spot is and WHO gets the ball after a scrimmage kick.

Is this basically it? I know there are some exceptions.

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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 01:00pm
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I'd say you have the concept down. See, it will not really be too difficult to enforce.

I read in another forum, that team-R/B did elect for a replay this past season a couple of times. That NCAA official also thought it was an odd decision.
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by KWH

2) Rule 7-5-9a now reads…..”A players, when B touches the pass or last forward pass if more than one.”

I am hoping that this will also be revised on 7-5-9c, as that is the one that I have had a problem with, in terms of the language. I agree on the spirit of the rule, but I feel that "forward" should be added to emphasize that PI restrictions end for B when the first forward pass has been touched by A or B.

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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 03:33pm
KWH KWH is offline
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Thumbs up "Clean Hands"

Quote:
Originally posted by Theisey
Mike,
Try to resist using the term "R got the ball with clean hands" as in actuallity they did not.

I'm going to use a portion of an NCAA definition, so fill in the actually NF equivalent for this, that portion is that we apply PSK to team-R/Bs foul was more than three yards beyond the NZ. If their foul did not meet that portion of the definition, then PSK would not apply.

That's whay I say to forget the clean hands stuff during the scrimmage kick. A team R/B foul 3 or more yards downfield while the kick is in the air is most certainly would not be clean hands, but that doesn't matter for PSK

Your answer looks correct. The basic spot for PSK is the spot where the kick ends (BAG it).
Theisey-
I understand what you are saying and I am confident we would both penalize this foul the same way, however;
The NFHS likes consistancy and they ARE NOT throwing out the term "CLEAN HANDS" is respect to PSK. Rather they are saying:
"..This new change does not create any exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with “clean hands,” but that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone."
As I write this I realize there are two ways of saying the same thing (your way and the NFHS way). I just think it is important to note that the NFHS "CLEAN HANDS" principal IS NOT disregarded for this play rather R/B responsibility for "CLEAN HANDS" ends when the kicked ball crosses the neutral zone expanded.
I guess that was alot of words to say I agree with you, and I so glad PSK has finaly arrived!


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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 05:07pm
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I think I'll add something to my coint toss speech -

"Gentleman, please do not commit double fouls during scrimmage kicks, as it kind of muddies the water, so to speak. Thank you. White, you're the visitor, please call it in the air".

That oughta do the trick.
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 05:34pm
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Re:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWH
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by Theisey
Mike,

"..This new change does not create any exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that R has to get the ball with “clean hands,” but that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone."
I certainly hope the rule wording does not say what you just quoted about. if it does, then the NF rules people missed the boat on this change.
A holding call against a flyer could very well be 7 to 10 yards down field and the kick hasn't even been made yet.
What you just said than disqualifies that from being a PSK foul.
That isn't PSK as the NCAA defines it nor should it be how the NFHS defined it.
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Old Thu Jan 16, 2003, 06:50pm
KWH KWH is offline
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Re: Re:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Theisey
[B]
Quote:
I certainly hope the rule wording does not say what you just quoted about. if it does, then the NF rules people missed the boat on this change.
A holding call against a flyer could very well be 7 to 10 yards down field and the kick hasn't even been made yet.
What you just said than disqualifies that from being a PSK foul.
That isn't PSK as the NCAA defines it nor should it be how the NFHS defined it.
OK, Thank you! you understood where I was going with that one, (even though I was just rambling)
Because on your play:

4th and 9 for K on the K30,
Flyer K5 is held by R6 on the K37,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
and is caught by R19 on the R30 and returned to the R35.

Based on the way the new rule reads, R did not recieve the ball with "Clean Hands" and thus I have a PREVIOUS SPOT foul and the situation is now 1st and 10 for K/A on the K40.

Different spin;
4th and 9 for K on the K30,
PAUSE,
KICK,
the ball crosses the line,
Lineman R99 Blocks Lineman K77 Below the waist at the line of scrimmage.

According to how the new rule is written I have PSK enforcment!

I think I may take a camera to the first meeting this year just for the entertainment purposes of later viewing.
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