go slow , then slower , then slow down

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by KWH

I challange you Derock! Prove me wrong!

I can't prove you wrong if I can't find my rule book. If you think its B.S. no problem. In "my" games that I officiate under the NFHS/Derock game sense modified rule book, I can sit a player for as long as I deem necessary, including the remainder of the game. If you disagree with my rule book, check yours. I'm sure you will find the same thing in yours.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

they have a nfhs/derock book now???????????????/

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

In a 3 man crew with a ref,linemens and a linejudge what is the ref's responsiblities?????????????

does he do anything except signals???

[KWH]

Originally posted by Derock1986
[
I can't prove you wrong if I can't find my rule book. If you think its B.S. no problem. In "my" games that I officiate under the NFHS/Derock game sense modified rule book, I can sit a player for as long as I deem necessary, including the remainder of the game. If you disagree with my rule book, check yours. I'm sure you will find the same thing in yours.

Your "game sense modified rules" are a travesty to true students of the game.
Just thinking about watching you spew your self-decided garbage rules to coaches and young children makes me want to puke!
I have proven you wrong!
I have also proven you to be an ignoramus!
And most importantly, I have proven YOU ARE NOT A FOOTBALL OFFICIAL! Rather,YOU ARE A JOKE!

I don't think Bubba Blues momma could have described you any better Derock, when she asked:
"Is ya crazy, or just plain stupid?"

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

the reason most youth coaches and youth players don't know the rules are because of officials like you derock. try calling the right calls and see some of the reactions on these kids and coaches faces.( I didn't know thats a rule)most coaches and fans think nfl all the time, they don't know rules so officials have to know them. I know derock you'll say its not our job to teach the teams and coaches rules, youre right there, but it helps to show them the way.

I have been stopped a few times going into the locker room to get changed a few times by parents and coaches and you should see their faces when I say, wait right here I get the rule book and show you. when their wrong, they just shake their heads and say im sorry Mr. Official. haven't you ever had a coach or parent of a team ever say to you, LAST WEEK SO AND SO MADE THIS CALL AND HE WAS WRONG? I'm willing to bet anti ref would say he was wrong because he didn't use game sense, even thought he knew it was the right call by the rules.

thanks

[sportswriter]

Originally posted by KWH ....there is NOWHERE IN THE NFHS RULEBOOK, COMIC BOOK, CASE BOOK, OR HANDBOOK, that allows an official to "sit" a player in the "penalty box" as you have suggested! [/B]

The first and foremost rule of officiating is to ensure that the right things are done for the improvement of the game.

There's no rules in the rulebook saying I should actually wander to the sideline and demonstrate to an eight-year-old what a hold is, and what it isn't. Yet I do, because at that level, our job as officials are to provide the kids with the foundations they need to improve, or at the very least, enjoy the game.

Very often, coaches in our spring league - and even in our fall bantam and midget (13-15, 16-18) leagues will request that if a player is getting to the point of being a bonehead, to send 'em over so they can sit out for three plays.

I don't know what they teach you, but in our part of the world, we're taught to be preventative. If, by sitting a player down for a series or two, we can prevent idiocy from happening, we do.

In the case that started this, I'd have gladly thrown an "objectionable conduct" penalty (Canadian term for unsportsmanlike, which is an additive 10-yard foul.) I'd consider a similar "benching" based on a number of circumstances - age being the big one.

[Mike Simonds]

Derock1986: Officials should never dictate playing time to a coach.

If the action is not severe (players jabbering to each other or pushing each other but without much intensity) we should use preventive officiating including talking to the player and asking his coach for help. If the coach wants to remove his player from the game then we accomplished our goal of game control without using our flag.

However, if the infraction merits a foul then use your flag and control the game using the rules, not your game sense. These kinds of fouls must be penalized irregardless of the score or game situation.

Officials do not have specific authority to sit a player down unless that player commits his second unsportsmanlike conduct penalty during the game or he commits a flagrant personal foul.

Do not make up your own rules Derock1986. Your intentions are good but we all need to be on the same page.

Derock1986, please do everyone a favor and learn the rules. Otherwise, go find another avocation to occupy your free-time.

[Mike Simonds]

While I commend your intentions, I also do not agree with your methods.

Do not dictate playing time to the coach. Use the proper rules to remove a player. It is not proper for an official at any level to "sit a player down". Talk to the player and the coach and let them make that decision. Use your flag and penalize according to the rules if the situation merits.

Use the rules, eh?

[sportswriter]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
While I commend your intentions, I also do not agree with your methods. Do not dictate playing time to the coach. Use the proper rules to remove a player. It is not proper for an official at any level to "sit a player down".

There's a trap here, of becoming nothing but a law-abiding arbiter without passion or feel for the game. We are human, and for eight to ten year olds, I think it is vital that we perform our fundamental role to support the game.

If I enforced the rules for first-time eight and nine-year old players, I'd be lucky if I didn't end the first quarter on the goal line, having called a hold or a illegal procedure on every play. Yet, according to the rule book, that's what I'm supposed to do. At that level, they have to play - parents, players, and coaches aren't there to see me enforce the rule book with anal precision.

Yes, a hold that affects a play gets called. But when all I see is a bunch of bobbing rears, and kids scratching their asses while they're supposed to be set, I can give that a break.

Otherwise, I'm making a travesty of the game.

[JMN]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportswriter

:There's a trap here, of becoming nothing but a law-abiding arbiter without passion or feel for the game.


I don't think that this was Mike's intention, Sportwriter. Few contend that we should call every foul and not have a passion or feel for the game.

I belive the disagreement is on how involved an official should get in "coaching" the kids. At youth level, it's a fact that the kids need coaching. However, I think we cross a fine line when we take on the responsibility of coaching. Sure, we all do some of this, but my preference is to go to the coach and explain what's going on. This helps him assume his responsibility of leadership and hopefully benefits the WHOLE TEAM, not just the one player. And the coach might learn a little bit in the process.

And, although as an R, if a youth game is lopsided and a coach is passing the ball, I will visit him between plays and encourage more conservative play. If he doesn't comply, then there might be a bit more yellow on the field.

I believe these actions support our passion for the game without being "law-abiding arbiters"!

[Mike Simonds]

Like I said earlier, officials should never, I repeat never tell a kid to leave the game, sit-out a play, etc. unless this is done by applying the proper rule.

The proper rules include sending an apparently injured player off for at least one play, ejecting a player for his second unsportsmanlike conduct foul, ejecting a player for a flagrant personal foul, etc.

However, we must never send a kid off the field without applying these rules. Playing time is the coach's responsibility.

I always apply preventive officiating techniques first, however, the best way to avoid trouble is to send a player out of the game by rule, not by "sitting him down"...

[Sleeper]

We had a situation with a player in a Varsity game this year that was pretty tight. He was doing a lot of trash talking, and my white hat asked me to tell the coach about the situation and that the player was close to a UC flag. I let the coach know and the coach pulled the player for a couple of plays to get him calmed down. We never, though, ever thought of "sitting the kid down". That is the coaches job and responsibility. It is our responsibility to enforce the rules. The preventive officiating came through informing the coach of a potential problem and pending violation. If the coach chooses to let him play, then the coach and player accept the consequences of the decision. We are not babysitters.

Players need to learn that there are reprocussions for what they do. Sometimes, it means that they get 15 yards and a ticket to watch from the sidelines. In Texas, they also get to watch for the next game as well. It seems harsh, but channeling the agression of the sport while still being under control is part of learning to play the game.

[bigwhistle]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Players need to learn that there are reprocussions for what they do. Sometimes, it means that they get 15 yards and a ticket to watch from the sidelines. In Texas, they also get to watch for the next game as well. It seems harsh, but channeling the agression of the sport while still being under control is part of learning to play the game.

Sleeper,

There is no provisions in Texas for a player to be suspended for a game for getting an UC foul. This may be something that the districts where you work have put into effect, but neither the UIL or NCAA have such a provision.

[KWH]

What does UIL stand for and where do I get a copy?
On line?
Thank you

[Sleeper]

I knew not for a UC, but was told that for an ejection it was. I put in a call to the UIL after not being able to find that in the rules, and was told that it was a district by district decision, as you said. I stand corrected and we have proven, yet again, that we shouldn't believe everything we are told, even if we were told by veteran officials. A rookie has learned another valuable lesson today. Thanks for the instruction, bigwhistle!