go slow , then slower , then slow down

[James Neil]

I thought it best to get away from the thread that this subject evolved from. It’s driving me crazy why you know who is driving me so crazy LOL. Any who , Doc’s post about tossing a flag for an USC in a youth game and then thinking twice about it , got me thinking about a situation that happened to me this last year .

Running play by the team whose leading big time late in the game ends OOB on my sideline (I’m LJ, 3-man, PW midgets) I toss my bag at the OOB spot and follow the players OOB watching the dead ball action. I retrieve ball and am coming back onto the field when I see a B52 contact A32 (the runner) by bringing his arm from his hip, open handed with his heal of his palm directly too the back of the A32 while A32 was walking back to his huddle. I say “hey, knock it off” and toss my flag. All of this happened in plain view of B52’ sideline and coach. The WH comes over and asks what I got; I tell him B52 punched A32 after the play. The B coach is protesting that it wasn’t a punch, it was open handed. The WH asks me if it was a punch or a push. I told him B52 struck A32 in the back. He said that’s good enough for me he’s out of here, and ejected the kid. After thinking all this over, I really wish I’d reported this as a dead ball personal foul. B52’s action were clearly in anger and frustration but I feel this particular foul could have been better handled with a 15 yarder and a little talk .

BTW, I talked to the kid’s father after the game and he said he though we did the right thing.

[DrMooreReferee]

Mr. Neil...

I certainly don't think you should feel bad about that call one tiny bit. The way you desrcibed that situation, I think a good percentage of guys would have thrown him out of the game. The players(especially at that age) need to learn valuable lessons about how to conduct themselves on an athletic field.

Another way to look at that. What if had allowed him to stay and then the next play an all-out fight broke out? Its certainly possible that might have happened.

I think your "game sense" was definately working on that play.


Doc

[ABoselli]

I threw a kid out of a game for the first time ever in my career this year. He took a swing at a kid with an open hand as well. He connected on the side of the other kids head. No question in my mind - he had to go, frustration or not. Its learning how to comport one's self when one is frustrated that's important.

Letting that stuff go is a recipe for disaster.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by James Neil
I thought it best to get away from the thread that this subject evolved from. It’s driving me crazy why you know who is driving me so crazy LOL. Any who , Doc’s post about tossing a flag for an USC in a youth game and then thinking twice about it , got me thinking about a situation that happened to me this last year .

Running play by the team whose leading big time late in the game ends OOB on my sideline (I’m LJ, 3-man, PW midgets) I toss my bag at the OOB spot and follow the players OOB watching the dead ball action. I retrieve ball and am coming back onto the field when I see a B52 contact A32 (the runner) by bringing his arm from his hip, open handed with his heal of his palm directly too the back of the A32 while A32 was walking back to his huddle. I say “hey, knock it off” and toss my flag. All of this happened in plain view of B52’ sideline and coach. The WH comes over and asks what I got; I tell him B52 punched A32 after the play. The B coach is protesting that it wasn’t a punch, it was open handed. The WH asks me if it was a punch or a push. I told him B52 struck A32 in the back. He said that’s good enough for me he’s out of here, and ejected the kid. After thinking all this over, I really wish I’d reported this as a dead ball personal foul. B52’s action were clearly in anger and frustration but I feel this particular foul could have been better handled with a 15 yarder and a little talk .

BTW, I talked to the kid’s father after the game and he said he though we did the right thing.

Mr Neil,
what you described sounds more like a shove than a punch. Nothing wrong with the call you made but of course I would have handled it differently. I would not have penalized a frustrated B team who was already losing big late in the game. Instead, I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game, kept my flag, and explained to B52 and B coach why he could not return.

[James Neil]

[
Mr Neil,
what you described sounds more like a shove than a punch. Nothing wrong with the call you made but of course I would have handled it differently. I would not have penalized a frustrated B team who was already losing big late in the game. Instead, I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game, kept my flag, and explained to B52 and B coach why he could not return. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ah yes, more of this modification of the NFHS rules. Just what provision in the anti-refing rules allows you the privilege to use this procedure, or are you just trying to piss me off? NO WAIT ! don’t answer that . Please don’t , don’t know how much more I can take AHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!1

[ABoselli]

I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game

If there's more than one person in front of you in the bathroom line, you're gonna miss one of derock's games. B52's seat of shame will be momentary.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by James Neil
[
Mr Neil,
what you described sounds more like a shove than a punch. Nothing wrong with the call you made but of course I would have handled it differently. I would not have penalized a frustrated B team who was already losing big late in the game. Instead, I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game, kept my flag, and explained to B52 and B coach why he could not return.

Ah yes, more of this modification of the NFHS rules. Just what provision in the anti-refing rules allows you the privilege to use this procedure, or are you just trying to piss me off? NO WAIT ! don’t answer that . Please don’t , don’t know how much more I can take AHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!1 [/B][/QUOTE]

Not trying to piss you off Mr Neil. You know I don't have my rule book but I know I have read NFHS rules allow you to sit any player for whatever reason, for any amount of time deemed necessary to include the remainder of the game.

[DrMooreReferee]

The decisions that a REFEREE makes are final. In all matters pertaining to the game.

I have had a couple of instances that I did something like this. Here is the description.... I had a player who was continually running his mouth after every single play. He was teetering on the edge. At the fisrt opportunity I had, I spoke with his coach. I told the coach that the player was about to be ejected if something wasn't done about it. I went on to suggest he rectify the situation, so I wouldn't have to. It worked. He was removed from the game without a flag being thrown.

Now, with that said. I don't think this situation is like that at all. If I see a player walking back to his huddle with his back turned, and then a player of the opposing team does what THIS guy did, he's GONE. This was not a guy running his mouth. This was a cheap shot, whether it was closed fist or open hand. He needs to understand that this type of conduct is UNacceptable.

The referee can indeed do alot of things to rectify a situation. The rulebook makes that clear. But, there are times when a player just needs to be ejected.


Doc

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by DrMooreReferee
The decisions that a REFEREE makes are final. In all matters pertaining to the game.

I have had a couple of instances that I did something like this. Here is the description.... I had a player who was continually running his mouth after every single play. He was teetering on the edge. At the fisrt opportunity I had, I spoke with his coach. I told the coach that the player was about to be ejected if something wasn't done about it. I went on to suggest he rectify the situation, so I wouldn't have to. It worked. He was removed from the game without a flag being thrown.

Now, with that said. I don't think this situation is like that at all. If I see a player walking back to his huddle with his back turned, and then a player of the opposing team does what THIS guy did, he's GONE. This was not a guy running his mouth. This was a cheap shot, whether it was closed fist or open hand. He needs to understand that this type of conduct is UNacceptable.

The referee can indeed do alot of things to rectify a situation. The rulebook makes that clear. But, there are times when a player just needs to be ejected.


Doc

I don't know Doc. It sounds a lot like to me (as Mr Neil described) that the guy shoved him in the back. A shove is not acceptable either but shouldn't be handled the same as if he had thrown a punch. A punch is an automatic ejection, a shove is a 15-yard penalty. In the situation described by Mr Neil (a shove, not a punch), I don't find it necessary to penalize B who is already losing big, late in the game. You don't need a sledge hammer to kill a fly, when a fly swatter will get the job done. Remove the player from the game and let the game continue.

[JMN]

J. Neil,

Without seeing this one, it's impossible to know for sure how each of us might handle it due to the fact that it's a judgement call. Like a PI call, we might each see it and call it a bit differently.

From your description, I would probably have held my flag, but got in front of the kid to have a discussion. But, I will hasten to say that since I didn't see the play, my answer is hypothetical and I'm not criticizing your call.

My method to deal with this would be to first get his attention (as you guys know, many of these kids keep walking or pretend not to hear you). If I have to, I'll ask him away from the huddle and force him to look me directly in my eyes. Then, I explain that this is totally unacceptable, why, and that I am watching him; one foot fault and you're gone! Additionally, I sometimes verbally yell (intentionally) to the other officials "watch #28 for cheap shots). This usually (at youth level) puts the kid on the straight and narrow. Also, I'll tell the flank guys what the deal is so they can fill the coach in on what's occurring.

Now, so not to be too Pollyana, if the kid is at all disrespectful when I address him, or blows me off in any way, he has earned a flag (and usually is asked to go visit with his coach for awhile).

This method works for me in that if I didn't flag him, I have an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson in sportsmanship, discipline, and prevent future occurences in the game.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Not trying to piss you off Mr Neil. You know I don't have my rule book but I know I have read NFHS rules allow you to sit any player for whatever reason, for any amount of time deemed necessary to include the remainder of the game.

Derock-
Just like most the hogwash you post on this forum, there is NOWHERE IN THE NFHS RULEBOOK, COMIC BOOK, CASE BOOK, OR HANDBOOK, that allows an official to "sit" a player in the "penalty box" as you have suggested! ..."For whatever reason, for any amount of time"... You didn't read that in any NFHS publication Derock! You made it up! That means you are dishonest Derock! That makes you a liar Derock!
This is yet another example of an ignoramus pulling yet another ruling out of their butt! You are NOT a football official Derock! You have no integrity Derock! YOU ARE A JOKE!

PS: Have a nice day!

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by KWH

Derock-
Just like most the hogwash you post on this forum, there is NOWHERE IN THE NFHS RULEBOOK, COMIC BOOK, CASE BOOK, OR HANDBOOK, that allows an official to "sit" a player in the "penalty box" as you have suggested! ..."For whatever reason, for any amount of time"... You didn't read that in any NFHS publication Derock! You made it up! That means you are dishonest Derock! That makes you a liar Derock!
This is yet another example of an ignoramus pulling yet another ruling out of their butt! You are NOT a football official Derock! You have no integrity Derock! YOU ARE A JOKE!

PS: Have a nice day!

Geez, ok then, I made it up.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Geez, ok then, I made it up.

I challange you Derock! Prove me wrong!

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

this is the 2nd time i heard someone say they were the linejudge in a 3 man game. do some area use a ref,linesmen and linejudge? in pa. we use a ref, ump and linesmen.

thanks

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by HighSchoolWhiteHat
this is the 2nd time i heard someone say they were the linejudge in a 3 man game. do some area use a ref,linesmen and linejudge? in pa. we use a ref, ump and linesmen.

thanks

Our 3-man crew use R, linesman, and line judge. If we do 4-man, the 4th man is the Umpire.