Trick play, middle school. Your take...

[SamG]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Don't forget announcers and writers do not hesitate to say officials got a play wrong in other instances where they don't throw flags. They rarely assume that just because a flag isn't thrown it must be legal.

I would never expect a journalist to know the rule on a goofy play like this.

I'm sorry, I should have specified. You are correct about announcers calling out officials when there's no flag, but I think it's safe to say that's for more "well known" (I use that term loosely) rules.

There should be some kind of trigger in their head though to check with someone who does know. Unfortunately he could have called his buddy who was the R in the game and still gotten the wrong information.

I think this is one of those where even if someone thought "it looked wrong", the "crowd's" reaction convinced him HE was wrong. Does that make sense?

[JasonTX]

Under Fed rules, what position is the player receiving the snap in? Lineman, back, or neither? By NCAA rules: One player may be between his scrimmage line and the backs if in a position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs. When in such position, that player may receive the snap himself or it may go directly to any player legally a back [S19].

The problem with this play for NCAA is that the ball did not go between the snappers legs.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Under Fed rules, what position is the player receiving the snap in? Lineman, back, or neither? By NCAA rules: One player may be between his scrimmage line and the backs if in a position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs. When in such position, that player may receive the snap himself or it may go directly to any player legally a back [S19].

The problem with this play for NCAA is that the ball did not go between the snappers legs.

The rule in NFHS is identical. I suppose rules lawyers could argue the point of whether the QB actually has to receive the snap there or can just start there and then move his hands in order to receive some other sort of snap such as up by the snapper's shoulder area since the rule is not specific enough for this ridiculous situation.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Under Fed rules, what position is the player receiving the snap in? Lineman, back, or neither? By NCAA rules: One player may be between his scrimmage line and the backs if in a position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs. When in such position, that player may receive the snap himself or it may go directly to any player legally a back [S19].

The problem with this play for NCAA is that the ball did not go between the snappers legs.

Who said the ball has to go between the snapper's legs, just because there's a player there taking advantage of the positioning rule? It says he may receive the snap himself, not that he has to take it from between the legs.

[TXMike]

I think what he means is that when the QB is up in the line like he was here he needs to be in position to receive a hand to hand snap between the snapper's legs. If he is not, he will either be a lineman or a mugwomp. In this case he appeared to be just to the left of the snapper and up so close that by definition he was a lineman.

He knows all snaps do not have to be between the legs as we routinely see it done differently on swinging gate plays

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by TXMike

I think what he means is that when the QB is up in the line like he was here he needs to be in position to receive a hand to hand snap between the snapper's legs. If he is not, he will either be a lineman or a mugwomp. In this case he appeared to be just to the left of the snapper and up so close that by definition he was a lineman.

He knows all snaps do not have to be between the legs as we routinely see it done differently on swinging gate plays

I think he was still in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap between the legs had it been delivered there. Didn't we decide here a while ago that as long as a player could reach from where he was standing, that he would be considered "in position" to receive a hand-to-hand snap between the legs? So just because his hands were momentarily someplace else doesn't mean he wasn't in the right position.

However, breaking the plane of the snapper's waist is another story. I think there are probably times in a normal formation where the QB's head may be leaning over the snapper far enough to be breaking that plane, but it's well accepted that he has a right to be there -- unless some day you want to be strict about it because it gives an advantage on a sneak. If he puts his head to the left or right of the snapper, then I think he deserves greater scrutiny for breaking the plane and therefore being considered a line player.

There's a lot in this for me to think about as a coach inasmuch as I want to install the sidesaddle T.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Who said the ball has to go between the snapper's legs, just because there's a player there taking advantage of the positioning rule? It says he may receive the snap himself, not that he has to take it from between the legs.

I realize the player in position to receive the hand to hand snap doesn't have to actually receive the snap himself. What I was getting at was that a lineman cannot receive a snap. By rule, this QB meets all the requirements for being a lineman.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

I realize the player in position to receive the hand to hand snap doesn't have to actually receive the snap himself. What I was getting at was that a lineman cannot receive a snap. By rule, this QB meets all the requirements for being a lineman.

For NFHS, it depends on how you interpret "under": if it means "in a position to receive a hand-to-hand snap," then he's a back.

2-32-3: "A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking the
plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the
waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line, except for the player
under the snapper, who is also considered a back."

[JRutledge]

Bill LeMonnier and USA Football chime in

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Bill LeMonnier and USA Football chime in

Peace

interesting that he considered the snap legal, saying nothing about its speed. I doubt USA Football's rules don't call for the snap to be quick, although it is conceivable inasmuch as Canadian rules don't.

[Texas Aggie]

So, I'd like TA to explain exactly how you have a quick and continuous motion and the ball leaving the hand in that motion unless it fairly immediately leaves the hand.

And I'd like you to show how what I said was incorrect. The NFHS rules doesn't say "fairly immediately," and the NCAA rules doesn't use either term.

There are legal snaps where the ball does not leave the hand until the arm is well underway with its motion in a front to back (or at an angle) way. I would NOT call that immediate.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

And I'd like you to show how what I said was incorrect. The NFHS rules doesn't say "fairly immediately," and the NCAA rules doesn't use either term.

There are legal snaps where the ball does not leave the hand until the arm is well underway with its motion in a front to back (or at an angle) way. I would NOT call that immediate.

Apparently, according to a post on another board, a certain Dotson Lewis disagrees with you. Mr Lewis is supposedly someone of officiating renown in your home state. Maybe you should argue it with him.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Apparently, according to a post on another board, a certain Dotson Lewis disagrees with you. Mr Lewis is supposedly someone of officiating renown in your home state. Maybe you should argue it with him.

For those that don't know, Mr. Lewis is also the training cooridator for the chapter in which those officials are from who allowed this play to take place without a flag. I am sure they know the proper rules by now. Way before my time, but Dotson was one of the ones who signed the Declaration of Independence. Well, maybe not that long ago, but he has been around Texas football for well over 50 years and he is still officiating on a high school crew. He is one of the ones who created our state association.

[jaybird]

Shut it down for a minimum of a snap infraction or flag them for unsportsmanlike conduct for using verbiage or actions to deceive the opponent by making them believe the snap is not imminent.

Another take would be a foul for illegal formation, illegal shift or illegal motion on the quarterback for his movements prior to taking the held ball from the snapper.

The simplest is the snap infraction as this fiasco does not meet the definition of a legal snap.

"Hey coach. Just teach your team to play football instead of wasting time teaching them to be dishonest."

[With_Two_Flakes]

Heck, I'm British and even I know exactly who Dotson Lewis is and I'm 5,045 miles away as the crow flies.

It'd be like not knowing who Nelson, Adams, Shirley, Sprenger, Parry or Redding were..........