Illegal motion or shift?

[Mike L]

Cadence or volume changes are not considered "false starts" because a false start requires some sort of movement. Speaking by itself, no matter how loud or varied, does not constitute movement in the football world.
For the exceptionally anal regarding this, perhaps 7-1-7 b should be removed or modified. But for us normal folks, we understand what it means.

[bigjohn]

I am not saying hard count and on 2 should be a foul. I am saying there are officials that say they can't call anything 7-1-7b because if you did you would have to include such staples of the game as on two and hard count.

They will not call the snap down punt or possum play because in their mind it is no different than going on two. The FED says any quick movement designed to cause B to encroach is afoul. CALL IT!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I am not saying hard count and on 2 should be a foul. I am saying there are officials that say they can't call anything 7-1-7b because if you did you would have to include such staples of the game as on two and hard count.

They will not call the snap down punt or possum play because in their mind it is no different than going on two. The FED says any quick movement designed to cause B to encroach is afoul. CALL IT!

The play you are calling the possum play is not a foul. That you think it is, is frankly just as insane as the other post. Simply not snapping the ball or intending to snap the ball is not a foul.

[bigjohn]

The play is designed JUST to draw B into the NZ, How could it not be what the FED wanted in7-1-7b?


7.1.7 SITUATION B: On fourth and four from A's 35-yard line, K comes to the
line in a scrimmage formation. After calling a few signals, A1 says "shift." All 11
players then make a movement. Some players move to a new position for a
scrimmage-kick formation, while four interior linemen remain in place and move
from a hands-on-thighs position to an upright position and finally to a three-point
stance. RULING: This could be ruled a false start if the covering official(s) determine
that it was designed to cause B to encroach. In judging the offensive team's
intent, the officials should consider whether players move to a new position, the
speed and abruptness of movement, down and distance and if any player pretends
to have the ball or otherwise simulate action at the snap with the start of a
play. (7-1-7; 7-2-6)

[asdf]

You suprised at this?

This guy has been bashing officials and making up his own interpretations for years.

You'd think an assistant coach on an 0-7 team that has been outscored
112-6 in the last two weeks would have something better to do.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

The play is designed JUST to draw B into the NZ, How could it not be what the FED wanted in7-1-7b?

Please tell me you're not an official...

"This could be ruled a false start if the covering official(s) determine
that it was designed to cause B to encroach"

If it was "what the FED wanted", this case play would simply say False Start.

The qualifier is because it is the MOVEMENT that matters. IF officials determine the MOVEMENT (sharp, abrupt, startling, whatever) is designed to draw the defense offsides, it's a false start. Simply running a play with no intent to snap the ball is NOT a false start, and you'd be drummed out of any association for calling it as such.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

You suprised at this?

This guy has been bashing officials and making up his own interpretations for years.

You'd think an assistant coach on an 0-7 team that has been outscored
112-6 in the last two weeks would have something better to do.

I don't know the guy at all. This explains a LOT (and not just here in this thread.)

[bigjohn]

No one listened to me when we were 10-0 or 9-2 either.

I got better things to do,my mom died last week at 75 and my dad 77 is dying in the hospital right now. I was off to spend the day with him. I come to these sites for a little break, thanks for making me feel so good, guys.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

No one listened to me when we were 10-0 or 9-2 either.

I got better things to do,my mom died last week at 75 and my dad 77 is dying in the hospital right now. I was off to spend the day with him. I come to these sites for a little break, thanks for making me feel so good, guys.

Sorry for your loss...

But if no one is listening to you ... maybe you'd benefit from going to a referee clinic. Seems you often read a single rule, pull it out of context with the rest of the rules, and then try to stretch it to where it's unrecognizable. There's no need for that - as a whole, the rules (generally!!!) make sense. It seems your TRYING to make rules support an incorrect position, rather than simply trying to learn what the right call would be in a given situation.

[Canned Heat]

Sorry to hear that BJ.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

No one listened to me when we were 10-0 or 9-2 either.

That's because you have no freaking clue as to what you are talking about.

On the FED site you bash the guys that work your games, and tell everyone who will listen that you have tons of e-mails from officials that say you are right.

We'll, you are not. You just like to argue, plain and simple. You cut and paste rules leaving out information that blows your claims out of the water....

For example.. I have yet to see you paste this from the Case Book... very pertinent to what is being discussed...

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

Altering the cadence doesn't fall into this, nor does the possum play....

Years of training, game experience, and unbiased observations give us the expertise to be able to determine this.

You, on another hand, hit every board possible to try to stir the pot. You pull excerpts from the book that fit your argument. You're right, we're wrong, period.

You know, we battle on here frequently. Some of us commenting to you on this thread probably wouldn't speak to each other before or after a game, but we'd darn sure have each other's backs while on the field working together.

We put our time in understanding the rules and all the nuances that make this a great game to officiate. We don't cut and paste every rule that we discuss, because we don't need to.

I have sympathy for your loss...........

But your posting is the same as it usually is, and that's why you got what you got from us.

[bigjohn]

NFHS Forum: According to 7.1.7.b

Some officials have agreed with me.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

NFHS Forum: According to 7.1.7.b

Some officials have agreed with me.

Just proving that some officials, like you, can't grasp the concept that the movement you describe may or may not constitute simulating action at the snap. Just saying "they moved" does not necessarily mean they false started. There is no prohibition on the offense beginning legal shifts or motions during a snap cadence, unless of course in the opinion of the covering official, that motion constitutes simulating action at the snap. So your play may or may not be a false start because it depends on how the players move, not just "because" they moved and the cadence is different.

As a side note I find your signature line very revealing considering how you go about making your arguments.

[bigjohn]

As a side note I find your signature line very revealing considering how you go about making your arguments.

Well, DUH!


If the offensive team executes a shift in such a manner that simulates action at the snap,
the foul is a false start and not an illegal shift. The manner in which offensive players execute
shifts or go in motion can be fouls for a false start, but never for illegal shifts.
When linemen or backs initially set in an upright position or hands-on-knees position and
then drop into a three- or four-point stance for their final position, the action results in a
false start if it is done in a manner that simulates action at the snap. Such action must be
slow and deliberate.
When the quarterback drops from an upright position to a position under the snapper, his
or her action must not simulate action at the snap or a false start has occurred. When the
quarterback withdraws his or her hands from underneath the snapper to go in motion, their
action must be deliberate and done in a manner not simulating the start of a down, and is
considered a shift. When the quarterback, while having his or her hands underneath the
snapper uses jerky movements of their head, arms or body while verbally sounding his signals
commits a foul. This action simulating a snap is a foul for a false start. Once the interior
linemen have assumed their final pre-snap set position on the line between the snapper
and the player on the end of the line and having placed their hand(s) on or near the
ground, they are locked into that position and may not move their hand(s) or make any
quick movement without committing a false start.
Remember the snapper is not restricted as are the interior linemen in regard to the lifting
of a hand(s) placed on or near the ground. A false start is always a dead-ball foul occurring
before the snap and resulting in a 5-yard penalty from the succeeding spot.

[Official]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There's no requirement that the player be motionless. He just has to be set and not making any movement that simulates action at the snap.

I found this...

After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head, or body for at least one second before the snap (7-2-6).