Illegal Motion or Illegal Shift

[Simbio]

I was discussing this today with another official friend of mine:

If you had a receiver off the line, facing the opposing goal and he and he alone moves forward at the snap (say to move up on the line) it may be ticky tack, but it is a penalty. But what penalty would you have? Illegal motion or Illegal Shift?

I say Illegal motion since it only involved him and it was him going forward at the snap. Anyone else?

[c it first]

Why would moving forward at the snap be a penalty ? Sounds like the rest of the offense , except the Q-Back maybe , are late .

[ljudge]

When you say "at the snap" do you mean he moved forward to get set, then in less than a second, the ball was snapped. "c it first" brings up a subtle (and important) point.

If you're saying the player was possibly out of position and moved up to the line as the ball was being snapped, then illegal motion.

If you're saying the player was out of position and he moved into position, but wasn't set for a full second, he's still considered to be a player in motion, hence still an illegal motion penalty. The only way this situation could be an illegal shift is if everyone had not been set for a full second at once (before the A player moved up).

Lastly, if as "c it first" is referring to, the player was the only one to react to the snap, you have nothing. It's just everyone else was slow.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ljudge
When you say "at the snap" do you mean he moved forward to get set, then in less than a second, the ball was snapped. "c it first" brings up a subtle (and important) point.

If you're saying the player was possibly out of position and moved up to the line as the ball was being snapped, then illegal motion.

If you're saying the player was out of position and he moved into position, but wasn't set for a full second, he's still considered to be a player in motion, hence still an illegal motion penalty. The only way this situation could be an illegal shift is if everyone had not been set for a full second at once (before the A player moved up).

Lastly, if as "c it first" is referring to, the player was the only one to react to the snap, you have nothing. It's just everyone else was slow.

REPLY: Just to add my comments...for Federation:
- If he moves forward abruptly, simulating action at the snap, it's a FALSE START. (Same for NCAA)
- If he's still moving forward at the snap, possibly to get to his correct position, it's ILLEGAL MOTION. (Same for NCAA)
- If he's able to stop prior to the snap, but is set for less than the required one second, it's an ILLEGAL SHIFT since even he must be set for that one second. (Legal for NCAA)

I disagree with 'c it first's' statement. If the snapper is late with the snap, and this player is stuck moving forward, it's probably a false start.

Bob M.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Bob M.

- If he's able to stop prior to the snap, but is set for less than the required one second, it's an ILLEGAL SHIFT since even he must be set for that one second. (Legal for NCAA)

Why is this illegal for NF? What rule requires him to reset for 1 second?

[ABoselli]

If he's moving forward right before the snap, if he doesn't stop moving forward before they snap it, its gonna be a motion penalty, just like if he had turned upfield too early. If he shifts, that's why he has to reset for one second. I know that a shift is at least two guys in NCAA, but just one for the Feds.

[bigwhistle]

Under NCAA, it takes two to tango, so to speak, for there to ever be an illegal shift. This is the only time that the "one second" rule will come into play. If there is only one player that moved after everyone else was set for a second, all he has to do is stop before the ball is snapped. His "freeze time" does not have to be one second.

[cmathews]

BBR 2-37 defines a shift as one or more offensive players......move to a new set position before the ensuing snap....
7-2-6after a huddle or Shift all 11 players........for at least one second before the snap.

So if indeed he is moving to a new position, which he is, going from the backfield to the los, it is a shift and thereby an illegal shift if not set for a second at the snap.

We had a similar discussion involving a back who is facing the LOS but moving laterally (shuffling) then stops for just an bit before the ball is snapped.... is this legal?? we were pretty evenly split...

in all cases it has to look pretty bad, and if close to a second he will get the benefit of my doubt....

[ljudge]

BBR is correct. As long as everyone had been set for at least one second (before the A player moved up to the line), then the shift provisions have been met so long as a 2nd player didn't move. The situation described cannot be an illegal shift, just motion.

The only difference from what's been described and from the interpretation that I'm providing below is, the player was moving forward in your example. So, this covers if prior to the LAST shift he was set for at least a second.

Here's an interpretation that I downloaded last year from NFHS 2002 interpretations...

SITUATION 8: Team A comes to the line of scrimmage and is motionless for at least one second. Back, A2 legally goes in motion and stops just prior to the ball being snapped. RULING: No foul. A2 is considered to be in motion at the snap. (7-2-7)

[cmathews]

Ljudge, thanks for the interp on the motion...however what about the point that the reciever in this post is changing positions....there is no provision in NHFS for needing 2 players for a shift, read the definition I cited above...I still think since he changed from the backfield to the LOS he changed his position, and therefore shifted, and illegally....but again It would have to be something that isn't even close to a second...I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt...but if it is a penalty I think it is illegal shift...

[ljudge]

I wasn't trying to say two players constitute a shift. I was just attempting to say it's an illegal shift if one player went in motion before all 11 players were set for a second, or if A1 went in motion then A2 shifted.

Play...Team A goes from the huddle to initial positions. Players shift into a 3-point stance. Everyone remains still for a second. If a player goes in motion and stops (AND the ball is snapped less than a second later) he is considered a man in motion from what I understand from that interpretation.

I see what you're saying though. He really didn't go in "motion" as we think of typical motion, he just went from one place to another (as in a shift) and wasn't set for a second before the snap. It's my understanding this is still illegal motion although your argument is a real good one (and valid I might add). Again, it's my understanding...which doesn't make me right, of course.

The good thing in this is it's 5-yards from the previous spot for both fouls so since everyone can't necessarily agree on the infraction from a technical standpoint, the enforcement is the same.

[cmathews]

Ljudge, agreed the enforcement is the same and both are live ball fouls...so the only difference is if the white hat looks like a one or two winged chicken....