illegal shift or illegal motion

[verticalStripes]

Fed rules.

I know this is not a big deal because the enforcement is the same. However, if all 11 A players break the huddle and come to set positions. Then, two players ( both are backs off the LOS) go in motion not towards the opponents goaline. The ball is snap while both players are in motion.

Illegal shift or illegal motion. I heard this argued both ways.

[dumbref]

Illegal shift 2-39 & 7-2-6

[verticalStripes]

How does 2-39 apply? The two A players do not move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

[LDUB]

Illegal shift means 2 or more players were moving and all of them did not come set prior to the snap.

Illegal motion for a back means he is moving forward at the time of the snap.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by verticalStripes

How does 2-39 apply? The two A players do not move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

Exactly - the two players moving, whether they were set after the huddle or not, constitutes a shift. If they do not come set for one second prior to the snap, it's an illegal shift under 7-2-6.

[kdf5]

All 11 players stop for one second, which is a shift. Then two players go in motion, legally, since all players had stopped for one second. Both are moving at the snap. That is illegal motion. Had one of the two in motion stopped moving and the other kept going to the snap, then you would have had an illegal shift because if the one stopped moving then the other would have had to stop too for one second.

Illegal Motion:

7-2-7...Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line......

Illegal shift:

7-2-6...After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by verticalStripes

Fed rules.

I know this is not a big deal because the enforcement is the same. However, if all 11 A players break the huddle and come to set positions. Then, two players ( both are backs off the LOS) go in motion not towards the opponents goaline. The ball is snap while both players are in motion.

Illegal shift or illegal motion. I heard this argued both ways.

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. We don't restrict behind-the-LS motion.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by kdf5

All 11 players stop for one second, which is a shift. Then two players go in motion, legally, since all players had stopped for one second. Both are moving at the snap. That is illegal motion. Had one of the two in motion stopped moving and the other kept going to the snap, then you would have had an illegal shift because if the one stopped moving then the other would have had to stop too for one second.

Illegal Motion:

7-2-7...Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line......

Or

Illegal shift:

7-2-6...After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

All 11 players stop for one second, which is a shift. Then two players go in motion, legally, since all players had stopped for one second. Both are moving at the snap. That is illegal motion. Had one of the two in motion stopped moving and the other kept going to the snap, then you would have had an illegal shift because if the one stopped moving then the other would have had to stop too for one second.

kdf5, I don't think this is correct. Think of it this way: if you were designing a play, would you put 2 players in motion? Of course not: that can't ever be legal as a motion play. So it isn't: when 2 players or more are moving it's a shift, and if they don't come set it's an illegal shift.

With one player in motion, you have the possibility of legal motion. If he does something wrong (moves toward the LOS, for instance), then the motion becomes illegal motion.

The fouls here are based on the idea that whatever the team is doing starts out legal, and if they screw it up it's illegal. So having two players moving at the snap would have to be an illegal shift.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by mbyron

kdf5, I don't think this is correct. Think of it this way: if you were designing a play, would you put 2 players in motion? Of course not: that can't ever be legal as a motion play. So it isn't: when 2 players or more are moving it's a shift, and if they don't come set it's an illegal shift.

With one player in motion, you have the possibility of legal motion. If he does something wrong (moves toward the LOS, for instance), then the motion becomes illegal motion.

The fouls here are based on the idea that whatever the team is doing starts out legal, and if they screw it up it's illegal. So having two players moving at the snap would have to be an illegal shift.

Sorry, mbyron and waltjp, but it is correct. Two men moving at the snap can't be an illegal shift because an illegal shift could only be called if one of the two stopped moving, or shifted (2-39...A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.), which in the original play, didn't happen. A shift happens once a player stops moving. Once any player shifts, then they all have to shift (stop moving). Walt, you claim this is a an illegal shift and highlight the part about all 11 players must come to a stop, which is correct, BUT after a shift and after at least one second of everyone remaining motionless after that shift, someone then can go in motion and be in motion at the snap. Note that 7-2-7 says it can only be ONE player. This is from Bob M's article: Motion vs. Shift:

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Sorry, mbyron and waltjp, but it is correct. Two men moving at the snap can't be an illegal shift because an illegal shift could only be called if one of the two stopped moving, or shifted (2-39...A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.), which in the original play, didn't happen. A shift happens once a player stops moving. Once any player shifts, then they all have to shift (stop moving). Walt, you claim this is a an illegal shift and highlight the part about all 11 players must come to a stop, which is correct, BUT after a shift and after at least one second of everyone remaining motionless after that shift, someone then can go in motion and be in motion at the snap. Note that 7-2-7 says it can only be ONE player. This is from Bob M's article: Motion vs. Shift:

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

kd, I'm not getting into a pissing match with you over this. Call it as you wish.

[kdf5]

Take is easy Walt. I posted Bob's article and you can read it for yourself.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Take is easy Walt. I posted Bob's article and you can read it for yourself.

I read Bob's article, and it makes sense. I defer.

kdf5, your explanation needs work. What I found persuasive in Bob's piece was the idea that motion does not become a shift until at least one of the players sets. So if neither of two players moving sets before the snap, it's not a shift. If one (or both) of them sets, it's now a shift.

I was also intrigued by the rarely called illegal shifts involving the QB coming up under center while the motion man is moving. Good stuff!

[JugglingReferee]

How one says something is often more important than what someone says. You would be amazed at what you can tell/get from people by your delivery method!

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I read Bob's article, and it makes sense. I defer.

kdf5, your explanation needs work. What I found persuasive in Bob's piece was the idea that motion does not become a shift until at least one of the players sets. So if neither of two players moving sets before the snap, it's not a shift. If one (or both) of them sets, it's now a shift.

I was also intrigued by the rarely called illegal shifts involving the QB coming up under center while the motion man is moving. Good stuff!

If by "needs work" you mean you took offense to what I wrote then I apologize. I meant no offense to anyone. If the explanation was close but not quite spot on, it was because it was early in the morn when I wrote it.