12 players on the field after a timeout

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Which you've been told doesn't mean much here if you don't have a rule to back it up.

If you have 12 players come on the field after a TO, there's no sub, there's no replaced player, hence there's no penalty.

May not mean much to you, but it must mean something to NFHS or they wouldn't have put the comment in the casebook. Are you so married to the rules that you can't apply common sense in regard to the spirit? In regard to your last comment, how would you handle that? IP all the time?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

May not mean much to you, but it must mean something to NFHS or they wouldn't have put the comment in the casebook. Are you so married to the rules that you can't apply common sense in regard to the spirit? In regard to your last comment, how would you handle that? IP all the time?

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

So basically, this is going against what everyone said on this thread regarding nearly the same scenario.

illegal Substitution or illegal Participation

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

So basically, this is going against what everyone said on this thread regarding nearly the same scenario.

illegal Substitution or illegal Participation

That discussion never really brought up a time-out or beginning of quarter scenario. It was really differentiating between IP/IS on A vs B, and was a case where there WERE substitutes and replaced players.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That discussion never really brought up a time-out or beginning of quarter scenario. It was really differentiating between IP/IS on A vs B, and was a case where there WERE substitutes and replaced players.

Correct...however, there are several references that are very similar minus the TO. I don't see why or where the TO makes a bit of difference, it's still a substitution between downs.

So the RFP blows at the conclusion of the one minute TO interval....it's the end of the TO, but not the down until the snap. There HAS been a substitution, obviously because there were 11 and now there's 12.

So you're saying, if they re-align and start to get into formation after the TO...and you or your covering official counts 12, you'd sooner let them get off the play and hammer them with 15 than call the 5 yard IS..? Not only that, it's almost a sure bet at the upper levels that the offense will probably realize they have one too many (and probably call a second TO), then will stand there trying to figure out who shouldn't be in there, and the opposing coaching staff will be screaming that there's 12 out there when they see the debacle going on (not that this matters), but yet you'd have nothing...? Do you grant the second TO after they were standing there longer than 3 seconds?

That's a 5 yard IS to me. And it falls into the same exact category as the standard IS like a player not leaving the huddle and having 12 with no one running off, or running off after a lengthy delay. IMO, some of you are trying to split hairs (with what I don't know) because of the TO designation. A substitution between downs with a Timeout is still a substitution between downs. If someone can find the rule that states TEAM A can have 12 on the field extended for longer than the 3 second swap-out, I'd really like to see it.....because it's not in my book. Just my 2 cents.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

Sure, no problem.
*3.7.1 SITUATION B: A number of team substitutes enter the field between
downs. The officials do not recognize that one replaced player does not leave the field within three seconds. When the ball is snapped: (a) B12 is attempting to get off the field, or (b) A12 is in the formation as an extra lineman. RULING: In (a), it is an illegal substitution foul and in (b) it is illegal participation. COMMENT: In a related situation, if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds. However, if the official’s count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave within three seconds as required. (3-7-4; 9-
6-4c)
The question at our meeting was the definition of the word, "imminent" and the direction from the state was that if, after the ready for play, an official discovers 12 in the formation, it's a dead ball foul for illegal substitution, instead of allowing the ball to be snapped and then getting them for IP.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If you have 12 players come on the field after a TO, there's no sub, there's no replaced player, hence there's no penalty.

Why not? 3-7-1 still applies, right?
ART. 1 . . . Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace
players. Replaced players shall leave the field within three seconds.

I think NFHS probably needs to address this point, since I'm fairly sure they don't want us flagging a team for IS during a time-out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Sure, no problem.

Thanks!!!

*3.7.1 SITUATION B: A number of team substitutes enter the field between
downs. The officials do not recognize that one replaced player does not leave the field within three seconds.

Therein lies the rub. Substitute and replaced player have specific definitions. This applies to normal between-play action. This would not apply on the first play of a half, or after a COP or Timeout. There are no substitutes; no "replaced players" in the OP.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Thanks!!!
Therein lies the rub. Substitute and replaced player have specific definitions. This applies to normal between-play action. This would not apply on the first play of a half, or after a COP or Timeout. There are no substitutes; no "replaced players" in the OP.

Every substitution occurs between downs, and every substitution involves substitutes and replaced players. I don't see anything that excepts COP or time-outs.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Every substitution occurs between downs, and every substitution involves substitutes and replaced players. I don't see anything that excepts COP or time-outs.

If this rule is meant to be applied during timeouts, it's the first I've heard of it. Surely we're not watching players entering the field during a time out and counting to 3. The players that come on the field after a timeout are not replacing anyone. That is the main difference between this situation and the normal between-play substitution.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If this rule is meant to be applied during timeouts, it's the first I've heard of it. Surely we're not watching players entering the field during a time out and counting to 3.

Exactly what I said in post 23. But I don't see anything that restricts the scope of 3-7-1.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The players that come on the field after a timeout are not replacing anyone. That is the main difference between this situation and the normal between-play substitution.

You can't have a substitution without substitutes and replaced players. During a time-out we don't pay attention to that, but it's still a substitution.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Thanks!!!
Therein lies the rub. Substitute and replaced player have specific definitions. This applies to normal between-play action. This would not apply on the first play of a half, or after a COP or Timeout. There are no substitutes; no "replaced players" in the OP.

Let's go back to the comment in the FED casebook for just a moment:
COMMENT: In a related situation, if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds.

I don't see why this would not apply to any of the situations you suggest, but let's use the TO as an example, since it's listed. Assuming team A had 11 before the TO, it's not much of a stretch to consider that A12 is a substitute after the TO in the same way he would be considered such "during the normal between play action." Nothing in the rule suggests that the interval between downs cannot include a TO. So, according to this caseplay, if after a TO 12 players come onto the field, nobody tries to leave, then after 3 seconds we are supposed to blow it dead, throw a flag for dead-ball, IS. Granted, the RFP designation was given to us before they put in the 3-second stipulation, so I'll withdraw the RFP comment and stick with the 3-second timeframe, but still, I've got dead-ball IS and not "allow the play to happen and call IP."