12 players on the field after a timeout

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by john_faz

This one had me second guessing myself. What would you do?

Team A is lined up for a PAT when they realize they only have 10 players, they call a timeout. After the timeout, they line up for the extra point and I blow the ready for play. I begin counting the number of offensive players and hear a player yell "We have 12, we have 12". As I verify that there are indeed 12, a substitute begins running off the field. The snap doesn't happend until after the 12 man is off the field.

I let the play happen without a flag. On second thought, could I have been justified for calling a dead ball Illegal Subsitiution? SHOULD I have called IS? or just let the play happen as no one gained an advantage?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

I've got a flag for illegal substitution. 12 in the formation after the ready for play.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I've got a flag for illegal substitution. 12 in the formation after the ready for play.

Correct.

No "substitution" was made after the RFP was whistled....which would've allowed the new 3 second provision to carry into it with one making for the sideline.

[jemiller]

Well during the TO a substitution was made. As such when they are about to hike the ball and you have 12 men on the field, I would blow the whistle and call a substitution foul and assess 5 yards on a dead ball play. To do otherwise would cause an IP live ball foul and 15 yards assuming the 12th player did not make it off. IMHO Jim

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by jemiller

Well during the TO a substitution was made. As such when they are about to hike the ball and you have 12 men on the field, I would blow the whistle and call a substitution foul and assess 5 yards on a dead ball play. To do otherwise would cause an IP live ball foul and 15 yards assuming the 12th player did not make it off. IMHO Jim

If my 12th is trying to get off the field...he is not participating. No one I know calls the 15 yard Illegal Participation for a player trying to get off the field.

[mbyron]

3.7 COMMENT: A procedure has been adopted to provide an equitable penalty
as it relates to illegal substitution. The following are examples of the most common
situations and rulings:

1. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not
get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously
with the snap and the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.
(3-7-4; 10-4-2a)
2. If a replaced player does not leave the field within three-seconds, it is a
dead-ball, illegal-substitution foul. (3-7-1)
3. If a replaced player or substitute goes off the field on the wrong side of the field
during the down, it is an illegal substitution (live-ball foul at snap). (10-4-4)
4. If an entering substitute is not on his team’s side of the neutral zone at the
snap, illegal substitution is considered to have occurred simultaneously
with the snap. If he then participates, it becomes a live-ball foul, illegal participation.
(3-7-6; 9-6-4c)
5. When a replaced player or substitute leaves on the wrong side of the field
or goes across the end line prior to the snap, it is illegal substitution. (3-7-
2; 10-4-4)
6. If a replaced player substitute enters the field during the down, but does not
participate, it is a foul for illegal substitution by a nonplayer, a 5-yard penalty. (3-7-6; 10-4-5)

In addition, the following chart should help officials distinguish the actions of
various individuals who enter the field, during the down, but do not participate.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

Correct.

No "substitution" was made after the RFP was whistled....which would've allowed the new 3 second provision to carry into it with one making for the sideline.

Note that 3-7-1 says nothing about the RFP; all it says is "between downs."

If the coach comes onto the field for the timeout, the wing for that sideline should be watching the huddle. As soon as it has 12 players and no one's leaving, the covering official needs to get the coach's attention and tell him he's got 12 players - get one off. If the coach ignores the request, count three seconds (silently) and toss the flag; in practice, this doesn't happen, as the coach's response is nearly always "WHO'S OUT HERE WHO'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE?!!"

If the conference was taken at the sideline, then R & U are counting as they come away from the sideline. I count to 12, check that my partner isn't signaling 11, count to 12 again, and then tick off three seconds in my head. If no one's leaving by then, whistle and flag.

The original poster hadn't even counted to 12 once before the replaced player starting running off. No flag from me.

[MD Longhorn]

FED must be significantly different than NCAA in this case then. Substitute has a specific definition. Unless your definition significantly differs from ours, there are no substitutes on this play at all - thus no illegal substitutes either. NCAA has a rule about 12 in the huddle - but even that would not apply to this play.

NCAA - I have nothing on this play, regardless of how long it takes him to realize his error, as long as he's off the field before the snap.

[HLin NC]

The NC supervisor informed us that we should flag IS and kill if A goes into formation with more than 11 players.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I've got a flag for illegal substitution. 12 in the formation after the ready for play.

What rule says there can't be 12 in the formation after the ready for play?

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What rule says there can't be 12 in the formation after the ready for play?

3.7.1 Situation B COMMENT: . . .if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds.
We have been instructed that any time we observe 12 in the formation after the ready, we "blow it and throw it" - dead ball, illegal substitution. Most of the time we catch this type of illegal substitution in a "mass change" of players, such as defense taking over, kicking team running out, etc. We have been instructed to use the RFP as a reference point for enforcement.

[BktBallRef]

Which you've been told doesn't mean much here if you don't have a rule to back it up.

If you have 12 players come on the field after a TO, there's no sub, there's no replaced player, hence there's no penalty.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Which you've been told doesn't mean much here if you don't have a rule to back it up.

If you have 12 players come on the field after a TO, there's no sub, there's no replaced player, hence there's no penalty.

May not mean much to you, but it must mean something to NFHS or they wouldn't have put the comment in the casebook. Are you so married to the rules that you can't apply common sense in regard to the spirit? In regard to your last comment, how would you handle that? IP all the time?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

May not mean much to you, but it must mean something to NFHS or they wouldn't have put the comment in the casebook. Are you so married to the rules that you can't apply common sense in regard to the spirit? In regard to your last comment, how would you handle that? IP all the time?

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

So basically, this is going against what everyone said on this thread regarding nearly the same scenario.

illegal Substitution or illegal Participation

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

Sure, no problem.
*3.7.1 SITUATION B: A number of team substitutes enter the field between
downs. The officials do not recognize that one replaced player does not leave the field within three seconds. When the ball is snapped: (a) B12 is attempting to get off the field, or (b) A12 is in the formation as an extra lineman. RULING: In (a), it is an illegal substitution foul and in (b) it is illegal participation. COMMENT: In a related situation, if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds. However, if the official’s count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave within three seconds as required. (3-7-4; 9-
6-4c)
The question at our meeting was the definition of the word, "imminent" and the direction from the state was that if, after the ready for play, an official discovers 12 in the formation, it's a dead ball foul for illegal substitution, instead of allowing the ball to be snapped and then getting them for IP.