Time Out before Illegal Substitution

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?

Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.

Argh. My bad. I SHOULD assume questions are FED when not listed, but I can't teach myself to do that apparently.

OK, Fed - if the sub entered and the replaced player did not leave in the prescribed amount of time - you have a penalty. Just as i said before, you don't waive off the penalty if a time out happened after it.

[mbyron]

I've just been working on illegal substitution, because we messed one up last Friday.

FED has both live-ball and dead-ball IS. For a dead-ball IS (replaced player fails to leave within 3 seconds), you would have to determine whether the coach requested the TO before the foul occurred. Penalize only if the TO request came after the foul, and ask the coach if he still wants the TO.

For a live-ball IS (replaced player is running off the field but does not make it prior to the snap), this is not a foul until the snap. Provided the coach requests a TO prior to the snap, it is not a foul. Shouldn't have to wave off a flag because there shouldn't be one.

See Case Book, 3.7 COMMENT

[mbyron]

I should add that as I reread it, the OP sounds like dead-ball IS, since the official was recounting 12. If you're counting twice, then the foul occurred before the TO request; penalize and give the coach the option to withdraw the request.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I've just been working on illegal substitution, because we messed one up last Friday.

FED has both live-ball and dead-ball IS. For a dead-ball IS (replaced player fails to leave within 3 seconds), you would have to determine whether the coach requested the TO before the foul occurred. Penalize only if the TO request came after the foul, and ask the coach if he still wants the TO.

For a live-ball IS (replaced player is running off the field but does not make it prior to the snap), this is not a foul until the snap. Provided the coach requests a TO prior to the snap, it is not a foul. Shouldn't have to wave off a flag because there shouldn't be one.

See Case Book, 3.7 COMMENT

Of course he requested a TO before the foul occurred

[Rich]

If I can't get the players counted and the flag on the ground before the TO request, I'll grant the TO without a penalty.

[MRH]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If I can't get the players counted and the flag on the ground before the TO request, I'll grant the TO without a penalty.

I agree. I don't see where an advantage has been gained.

[MD Longhorn]

I have to admit I'm supremely surprised at the number of officials blowing off this foul. There are rules that we are supposed to weigh advantage / disadvantage (holding away from the play, for example). This is not one of them. Ignoring this foul, to me, is like ignoring a false start on your side of the line because the play went the other way.

Regardless of ruleset, IS happens WHEN IT HAPPENS. If you're already recounting the 12 ... it happened. This is not an advantage/disadvantage type of foul. They broke the rule when the replaced player didn't leave (FED) or they broke the huddle (NCAA). A time out after the fact cannot negate what has already happened.

I'm completely amazed at the number of you (most of whom I know (from here) and respect (also from here)) ignoring this foul over a subsequent time out. This seems to me to be VERY contrary to the spirit of the rule.

To those ignoring this foul ... if the sub comes in, doesn't leave, you count... you start to recount (5 seconds ... 6 seconds) and THEN a player leaves the huddle --- do you ignore it then? What if he leaves the huddle and THEN the coach calls a time out? Too much inconsistency in ignoring this, to me. And no, I'm not exactly known as an OOO.

[parepat]

I have no foul if I have not flagged it.