2 play situations

[bkdow]

In the first play, Receiving kicked it out of the end zone of Kicking....correct? Does not Kicking have two options if the kicking was intentional? Penalized from the spot of the foul against R and would still be 4th down or decline the penalty and it would be a touch back with ball awarded to Kicking on their 20, right?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bkdow

Penalized from the spot of the foul against R ...

No, where do fouls by the defense get enforced from?

decline the penalty and it would be a touch back with ball awarded to Kicking on their 20, right?

No, what was the force that put the ball into the endzone?

[slack74]

NFHS You are correct it would be a safety foul behind the basic spot is penalised from the spot therefore its a safety

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by slack74

NFHS You are correct it would be a safety foul behind the basic spot is penalised from the spot therefore its a safety

Um ... what?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by slack74

NFHS You are correct it would be a safety foul behind the basic spot is penalised from the spot therefore its a safety

Objection your honor, asked and answered.

[Reffing Rev.]

In the OP the snap went into the end zone...force is a A/K's snap, meaning we will either have a safety against A/K or a touchdown for B/R (assuming they get possession)

What happens after the ball goes into the end zone cannot change the force that put it there.

R's kick assuming that the OPer meant an intentional act of kicking, then all-but-one 15 yards from previous spot or decline it for a safety.

If though instead and more likely R's kick was inadvertant to an attempt to recover for a touchdown, then when the ball goes out of the end zone it is a safety, as R's touching is nothing more than a muff on a ball K's responsible for putting in the end zone.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

In the OP the snap went into the end zone...force is a A/K's snap, meaning we will either have a safety against A/K or a touchdown for B/R (assuming they get possession)

Well ... you're kind of omitting one other significant possibility ... K recovers the ball and manages to either run it out or kick it out. This is not, defacto, a TD or Safety ... yet.

R's kick assuming that the OPer meant an intentional act of kicking, then all-but-one 15 yards from previous spot or decline it for a safety.

Not really much of an option, eh? K is keeping the ball, 15 yards from the original LOS... maybe even with a first down.

If though instead and more likely R's kick was inadvertant to an attempt to recover for a touchdown, then when the ball goes out of the end zone it is a safety, as R's touching is nothing more than a muff on a ball K's responsible for putting in the end zone.

Yup.

[bkdow]

OK, I am growing more confused as the thread goes on. The force putting the ball into the end-zone was the snap. However, it is still a live ball, so should I not be more concerned on the force that propelled the ball out of the endzone?

In addition, it's a loose ball, so the penalty would be enforced from the spot (which is the goal line) and would be a 15 yard....oh, would someone help me here because I am twisting all out of shape!

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bkdow

OK, I am growing more confused as the thread goes on. The force putting the ball into the end-zone was the snap. However, it is still a live ball, so should I not be more concerned on the force that propelled the ball out of the endzone?

No. Check the definition of force in Rule 2. No new force can be imparted on the ball while it is in the endzone.

In addition, it's a loose ball, so the penalty would be enforced from the spot (which is the goal line) and would be a 15 yard

This is basic all but one enforcement. Go through the steps of penalty enforcement and you will get your answer.

What type of play is it? (Loose ball or running)

Who committed the foul? (Offense or Defense)

What is the spot of the foul?

Where is the basic spot?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bkdow

OK, I am growing more confused as the thread goes on. The force putting the ball into the end-zone was the snap. However, it is still a live ball, so should I not be more concerned on the force that propelled the ball out of the endzone?

In addition, it's a loose ball, so the penalty would be enforced from the spot (which is the goal line) and would be a 15 yard....oh, would someone help me here because I am twisting all out of shape!

(1) No. Read the rule 2 definition of force.

(2) It's a loose ball play. The basic spot is the previous spot. The all-but-one doesn't apply because the penalty is on R/B.

[Welpe]

Or Rich could give you the answers.

[bkdow]

seems to be a common theme: No one wants to give the answer. I'm at work without access to a rule book.

[Welpe]

Rich and I both answered your questions. I answered your first and Rich basically answered your second, you just need to put the pieces together.

I make it a habit of keeping my books with me so I can look things up when I have a moment (lunch, break, etc). We are trying to help you learn by going to the source instead of just spoon feeding. Teach a man to fish and all that...

Rich, I also beg to differ that all but one doesn't apply here. This is still all but one enforcement but the foul by defense is one of the fouls in the "All" category.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bkdow

seems to be a common theme: No one wants to give the answer. I'm at work without access to a rule book.

It can't be that crucial if you're at work. Look it up when you get home. It's easy for me to tell you the answer, but it's more important to know the key principles and definitions that lead to the answer so you can apply them yourself.

[ppaltice]

Force is only in reference to the action that puts the ball from the field of play INTO the endzone. The illegal kick caused the ball to go from the endzone across the end line, so we do not use the term "force" in association with this action.

Also, do not mix up "loose ball" with "loose ball play" (see rule 10-3). The ball is loose, but more importantly, it is a loose ball play because of the incomplete backward pass (snap) from in or behind the neutral zone. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot. For most fouls on B/R, the enforcement spot is the basic spot (in this case the previous spot) (see 10-5 for exceptions).

So, the penalty on B/R occurs during a loose ball play, the enforcement spot is the previous spot. If declined, we have a ball that became dead in A's EZ with A responsible for forcing the ball into their EZ, so we have a safety (8-5-2b).