Two play situations

[Bob M.]

[Already posted on the Fed discussion forum, so some of you may have seen these already.]

These two plays are from this year's NFL pre-season test. Evaluate them for Fed and NCAA rules (specify which you're using).

1. PLAY: A 3/4 B44. QB takes snap, and at the B45, turns and throws a quick pass which Back A2 catches at the B44. A2 runs to the B36 where he throws a pass to End A4 at the B28 and A4 runs for a TD. After scoring A2 taunts B2.

2. PLAY: A 3/10 A10 Back A2 takes a hand off from QB A1 at the A5 and runs to the A26 where, just before he is tackled there, tosses the ball forward to Guard A6 who tries to catch the ball at the A28 but muffs it into the air. B1 catches the ball at the A30 and runs to the A 1/2 where he fumbles the ball over the endline.


Interesting twist to Play #1...what if it was 4th down?

[JasonTX]

NCAA:
Unless I'm not seeing everything.

1. Result will be A 4th and 16 at A-44. Clock will start on the snap.
1. With the added twist: B's ball 1st and 10 at the A-44.

2. If the penalty is declined it will be A's ball 1st and 10 at the A-20 and the clock will start on the snap. If the penalty is accepted it will be A's ball 1st and 10 at the A-21 and the clock will start on the snap. B will likely decline the penalty.

Now tell me what I overlooked so I can make the corrections

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I don't think you overlooked a thing.

[grantsrc]

On play 2, because the play rolls over the endline it isn't considered a forward fumble OOB? (I am still trying to figure out that darned forward fumble rule) Is that why it wouldn't return to the spot of the fumble if B declined the penalty, hence the touch back?

[DJ_NV]

That's correct. The "fumble forward out of bounds" rule only applies to an OOB spot in the field of play. If a ball is fumbled foward into the EZ and it becomes dead there or is OOB behind the GL, it is a safety or touchback. See 7-2-4-b.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

For NFHS, you actually need to confirm that the first pass was forward. Just because it ended up ahead of where it started doesn't matter; if the initial direction was backward and then, say, it's blown forward, then it was a backward pass...

... which doesn't actually matter on this play, since the second pass will be illegal anyway. So I believe the results for NFHS are exactly the same as Jason's answers for NCAA.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

1. PLAY: A 3/4 B44. QB takes snap, and at the B45, turns and throws a quick pass which Back A2 catches at the B44. A2 runs to the B36 where he throws a pass to End A4 at the B28 and A4 runs for a TD. After scoring A2 taunts B2.

A2's pass is flagged for an offside pass. Another flag is thrown for the Objectionable Conduct on A2. When A2 threw the offside pass (which is subject to penalty), he had gained first down yardage. A will keep 1D, but 10 yards back (for the OC) from the B36: A 1D/10 @ B46.

Originally Posted by Bob M.

Interesting twist to Play #1...what if it was 4th down?

No effect.

Originally Posted by Bob M.

2. PLAY: A 3/10 A10 Back A2 takes a hand off from QB A1 at the A5 and runs to the A26 where, just before he is tackled there, tosses the ball forward to Guard A6 who tries to catch the ball at the A28 but muffs it into the air. B1 catches the ball at the A30 and runs to the A 1/2 where he fumbles the ball over the endline.

A1's handoff was legal, and A5 gained yards. A5's offside pass (subject to penalty) is flagged at the A26. B1 has intercepted the ball and his fumble results in a dead ball. B will be deciding where A gets the ball by it's acceptance or declining of the A offside pass. Accepting: A 1D/10 @ A26. Declining: A 1D/10 @ A20.

B should decline the offside pass to create the fumbled-through-the-endzone situation.

[Kirby]

Fed rules...

I get the same answers as JasonTX.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

[Already posted on the Fed discussion forum, so some of you may have seen these already.]

These two plays are from this year's NFL pre-season test. Evaluate them for Fed and NCAA rules (specify which you're using).

1. PLAY: A 3/4 B44. QB takes snap, and at the B45, turns and throws a quick pass which Back A2 catches at the B44. A2 runs to the B36 where he throws a pass to End A4 at the B28 and A4 runs for a TD. After scoring A2 taunts B2.

Interesting twist to Play #1...what if it was 4th down?

That ain't nuthin'...what if it wasn't 4th down but time expired for a period?

I don't know if they've fixed things, but at least as of recently there was an incentive for a trailing team in such a situation to throw an illegal forward pass in Fed. The loss of down was not accompanied by a loss of opportunity to snap the ball on an accepted penalty when a half expired.

Robert

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That ain't nuthin'...what if it wasn't 4th down but time expired for a period?

I don't know if they've fixed things, but at least as of recently there was an incentive for a trailing team in such a situation to throw an illegal forward pass in Fed. The loss of down was not accompanied by a loss of opportunity to snap the ball on an accepted penalty when a half expired.

Robert

Not anymore. In 2005 rule 3-3-4-b was added and states that a period shall NOT be extended when a foul that has a LOD is accepted.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by MJT

Not anymore. In 2005 rule 3-3-4-b was added and states that a period shall NOT be extended when a foul that has a LOD is accepted.

REPLY: I know we're going off the original track, but there's still a hole in this rule: What if the team leading commits a foul during the last timed down of the 4th quarter which includes LOD? They can effectively end the game by committing a foul.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: I know we're going off the original track, but there's still a hole in this rule: What if the team leading commits a foul during the last timed down of the 4th quarter which includes LOD? They can effectively end the game by committing a foul.

OK, but so what? Look at what's penalized by LOD and tell us what a team would gain by fouling in such a situation.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

OK, but so what? Look at what's penalized by LOD and tell us what a team would gain by fouling in such a situation.

REPLY: A leads 7-6 late in the 4th quarter. It's 4th and 10 at A's 15. 0:08 seconds on a stopped clock. A just wants to punt the ball out of there and gain field position. Punter A10 muffs the snap and scrambles for ball near A's goal line. He picks it up at A's 1 and sees the oncoming rush. He throws a forward pass to the flats where there's no eligible receiver--just to dump it and avoid the sack. Time expires while the pass is in flight. RULING: Illegal forward pass. Penalize A half the distance and it's a LOD. So B takes over at A's 1/2 yardline. But guess what...because of this new rule, we don't extend the period. Game over! Whereas a B sack would have given B a shot, and the previous rule would have extended the period for B to run an untimed down, now we need to tell B's coach, "Tough break. A's foul allowed them to seal their victory. We're going home."

[MJT]

Bob, were you ever on the Saturday Night Live version of "Deep Thoughts?"

I surely have never thought of such a situation. To take care of this situation, the rule could be "if it is the last play of a qtr, the team can choose to have the foul enforced and have the qtr extended if they so choose." Then they would only do so in that type of situation.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by MJT

Bob, were you ever on the Saturday Night Live version of "Deep Thoughts?"

I surely have never thought of such a situation. To take care of this situation, the rule could be "if it is the last play of a qtr, the team can choose to have the foul enforced and have the qtr extended if they so choose." Then they would only do so in that type of situation.

REPLY: Precisely how I would like to see it handled--allow the offended team to choose whether or not to extend.