Punt Near Endzone

[golfnref]

He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by golfnref

He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

Whatever man. I have been doing this a long time and my work on the field speaks for itself. I am sorry I am not overly technical like some here and likely can only prove it on here and not on the field. Thanks for the laugh!!!

I did not lose a single game or position by what those want to think as we are having this conversation.

Peace

[bisonlj]

JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

I really do not care anymore. It is your issue, not mine.

I have a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. I am only marking first touching once with a bean bag (as a Back Judge and only having so many bean bags to begin with) and the ball will be place at one spot or the other in most case. If you need someone to give you all the possibilities, then you either do not know how to read the rules (because there are many rules with exceptions and different situations that apply) then I do not know what to tell you. And still the OPer has not said they had a problem understanding what they asked.

Peace

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you.

Peace

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you.

Peace

Jeff, I did not attack you. I did not insult you. I've always treated you with respect. I expect the same respect in return.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but when you say you're only marking 2 spots it makes it difficult to comprehend.

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

Why are we still trying to wrestle this greased pig? He WILL NOT answer your question because he knows he was blatantly wrong. He will respond to your question with something like, "Walt - how can you not know the answer to this." followed by an insult to you, a bit of ego-bluster or resume-spewing, and a comment that he doesn't have to help you understand what you couldn't possibly understand. He'll probably yell at you for not knowing the 10 is irrelevant even though you never said it was.

HE KNOWS HE WAS WRONG. That is why he won't answer this directly. He's simply sitting in his mother's basement, getting excited about how much he's stirred things up. Thus, Jeff has landed in troll-landia.

This teaches me who I should and should not ask when requesting enlightenment regarding FED rules.

[bisonlj]

Back in post #25, JRut responded to this mbcrowder post:

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots?

This was your reply:

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary.

At that point you were very clearly saying the subsequent spots of first touching did not matter and you are giving R the ball at the R2. Then you finally said:

The furthest most spot for first touching is going to be used

That is exactly the point myself and others were trying to make but you argued against it. I am glad we are now in agreement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Back in post #25, JRut responded to this mbcrowder post:



This was your reply:

At that point you were very clearly saying the subsequent spots of first touching did not matter and you are giving R the ball at the R2. Then you finally said:

That is exactly the point myself and others were trying to make but you argued against it. I am glad we are now in agreement.

It seems to me you tried to read into what I said and then started talking about other things that were not relevant to my position. Or you tried to assume I did not know the rule because I was not following your procedures by throwing bean bags all over the place.

I do not know how many ways I can say this. I will bag on one spot for first touching. As it is almost never that complicated to figure out where the ball is first touched. BTW, the bag is a guide, not an absolute as the bag might not land in the perfect spot. I also make a note to myself where that spot is, similar to how I would put a flag if thrown for a penalty. The bean bag is a guide, not an absolute or cannot be changed or moved. Secondly if the ball dies closer to the LOS, it is likely that is where the ball will be spotted. I guess I do not go through this "If the ball touches here....then if some unforeseen issue comes up....I must then do this." I do not think like that as an official. There is a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. Wherever that first touching spot is it is only relevant if the ball dies behind that spot. And in most cases these two spots are not that hard to determine. Also I have never seen a ball bounce around 3 or 4 times (legally) in different directions in a matter of yards where this is hard to tell. Players get away from the ball and let it bounce. And if it goes back to the LOS, they will grab it as not lose field position. And I am still only going to bean bag one spot as the other spots would be worse if I do not get those as those have penalty implications. Those spots to me are much more important than what where we might mark a potential first touching spot that is not likely to be used at all. Or if used it will be obvious the most advantageous position. I used the term "irrelevant" because it is not hard to determine in a 3 yard window where to put the ball. Which is why I was really puzzled when you (If I can remember that long ago) why you said we should bean bag a ball at the 20, then 16, then 14 on a scrimmage kick going towards R's goal line. Remember the word “relevant” or irrelevant is a subjective statement. What might be important to you might be insignificant to me. And which is why some crew do very different things at the very same level all the time.

And since you keep asking me this question, how many bean bags are we expected to use on a normal basis? That question has never been answered for me. But I am supposed to admit something that I do not agree with.

I cannot believe we are at 8 pages over this crap. If you believe I am wrong, why does it matter what I say to you? Are we going to work with me soon? Are you going to decide what I will work or not work in the future? Are you going to vote for me in some association election or position? I know I will not have much association with you. But I have to admit I am wrong when I do not agree even what we have been talking about. I know what you are talking about, but that is not what I was talking about in the original post and nothing you have said changes what I was talking about. I just said I was marking one spot and rulebook officials like yourself want to complain about rules and details that were never intended in this discussion.

I have to go as I have actual football to work. Have a great weekend.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is this really that hard? Peace

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

Who is everyone else? Everyone in my state? Everyone across the country? Everyone I work with? Who is everyone? Please do not equate a conversation that the average official is not involved in and say everyone else. If that is the case then no one I have ever worked with marks 4 or 5 different first touching spots. Never had anyone suggest that be the case at the college or high school ranks. And if you have actually read this site and payed attention to what people say, they do not bring enough bean bags with them to accomplish the unlikely possibility if the ball is touched mulitple times. If what you suggest is done, then most people here that talk about how many bean bags they have would not be able to bean bag more than one first touching spot and then the end of the kick and then the likelihood for a fumble if one takes place by R after the end of the kick. I am sure you will tell me that the end of the kick spot is not important either as it has other ramifications in the game but 5 first touching spots are crucial.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

And you are not aware enough to know where the furthest most spot is? You have to bean bag each spot too? I bet you are one of those guys that need a white and a blue bean bag to determine the end of the kick from a first touching spot too?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

Wait a minute, which one is it? You either use every bean bag for every spot or you do not? Oh you throw your hat? Next then you are going to tell me is you use a bean bag too for an out of bounds spot.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

I said I was marking one spot for first touching. And if a ball is touched at R's 1 and the ball dies at the 4, kind of easy to figure out where we are putting the ball. And I am not looking for your credibility as I have that were it counts. Sorry, I have never put too much stock in what is said here and worry about my credibility. You are throwing your hat for a mark and you are worried about my credibility? We stopped doing that years ago because it looks silly. But you are worried about my credibility? I have a few things on my uniform that gives me all the credibility I need.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.Peace

Hmmm...