Punt Near Endzone

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.



I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by
any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

Too quick for me bison.....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

Yeah, that's what he's saying. I KNOW this to be wrong in NCAA, and have been convinced by the other posts here that it's wrong in FED too. Not starting the next play at the 4 is contrary to not only rule but fairness. Ignoring part of the rule is laziness, nothing less.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

You cannot figure out where the first touching spot and dead ball spot is? There is only going to be one of each that matter and one spot where we are putting the ball unless there is a penalty.

I am still trying to figure out why you need 8 bean bags to make that determination? Oh, you probably use a white bean bag for one thing and another for the end of the kick.

Peace

[Just Me]

Actually, you were wrong. Despite all your bluster, resume posting, excuses, & insults, you were painfully wrong. It's just you can't admit it. And that's where you tragically fail.

mcomber asked
"So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots?"

and your answer was
"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Just Me

Actually, you were wrong. Despite all your bluster, resume posting, excuses, & insults, you were painfully wrong. It's just you can't admit it. And that's where you tragically fail.

Why don't you be a man and bring your behind to where I am. Then talk to me about what I am doing or saying. Do that then we can talk about what I am wrong about. Are you scared to do that, or are you going to hide behind a little name because you do not have the balls to say it to my face?

I will be waiting?

Peace

[jaybird]

..only one first touching spot matters..

Fundamentally true, but all must be marked/bagged in order to ascertain just which one. The initial spot of first touching may not be the one that matters.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why don't you be a man and bring your behind to where I am. Then talk to me about what I am doing or saying. Do that then we can talk about what I am wrong about. Are you scared to do that, or are you going to hide behind a little name because you do not have the balls to say it to my face?

I will be waiting?

Peace

Interesting... just had a long talk last night with my 7th grader about not lowering himself to the level of the kid who pretty much said the same thing to him.

[ppaltice]

I only bean bag the first spot, and move the bean bag when the play is dead if I have a better spot of first touching. I not the "best spot" in the same way that I note the yard line if I miss the spot of a foul when I toss my flag. I reserve my second bean bag for the end of the kick if I need it.

I was looking in the AHSAA mechanics guide and they offer no additional guidance for multiple spots of first touching. They do note "if bean bag falls on wrong yard line, after the play is over, immediately move it to the correct yard line."

[Mike L]

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

Exactly......

If any K player touches a crimmage kick in this manner (talking about first touching) R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching......"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

I do not know how many here are Back Judges, but I doubt or have never seen one bean back 5 different spots. You bean bag one and you put the ball at the furthest most point if the kick ends without a return. The same thing on a free kick. You bean bag the spot of first touching in the neutral zone and then you keep officiating. Then whatever is the most advantageous spot is what we are going to put the ball. That is what I am looking for (which was the question) and let my Referee know what is that spot or if the ball is behind the spot.

I think this conversation is asinine. It is silly beyond belief because I would bet that most individuals have not worked the Back Judge position at the level I have and had to make these decisions on a regular basis as I have. Many here are making it complicated by trying to split hairs which the spot is. In almost all the situations that take place the K team touches the ball they are not trying to bat the ball all over the place. If the ball goes toward R's goal they are going to try to keep it going towards that goal. If the ball goes back toward K's goal line K is likely to possess the ball and if they don't it will be pretty obvious where we are going to put the ball.

Is this really that hard?

Peace