Punt Near Endzone

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you.

Peace

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you.

Peace

Jeff, I did not attack you. I did not insult you. I've always treated you with respect. I expect the same respect in return.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but when you say you're only marking 2 spots it makes it difficult to comprehend.

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

Why are we still trying to wrestle this greased pig? He WILL NOT answer your question because he knows he was blatantly wrong. He will respond to your question with something like, "Walt - how can you not know the answer to this." followed by an insult to you, a bit of ego-bluster or resume-spewing, and a comment that he doesn't have to help you understand what you couldn't possibly understand. He'll probably yell at you for not knowing the 10 is irrelevant even though you never said it was.

HE KNOWS HE WAS WRONG. That is why he won't answer this directly. He's simply sitting in his mother's basement, getting excited about how much he's stirred things up. Thus, Jeff has landed in troll-landia.

This teaches me who I should and should not ask when requesting enlightenment regarding FED rules.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why are we still trying to wrestle this greased pig? He WILL NOT answer your question because he knows he was blatantly wrong. He will respond to your question with something like, "Walt - how can you not know the answer to this." followed by an insult to you, a bit of ego-bluster or resume-spewing, and a comment that he doesn't have to help you understand what you couldn't possibly understand. He'll probably yell at you for not knowing the 10 is irrelevant even though you never said it was.

HE KNOWS HE WAS WRONG. That is why he won't answer this directly. He's simply sitting in his mother's basement, getting excited about how much he's stirred things up. Thus, Jeff has landed in troll-landia.

This teaches me who I should and should not ask when requesting enlightenment regarding FED rules.

JRut is actually very knowledgable about Fed rules so I would say he's someone you could rely on most of the time. He either firmly believes the subsequent touching by K are not spots of first touching or he is afraid to admit he was originally mistaken. I don't care which it is.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

JRut is actually very knowledgable about Fed rules so I would say he's someone you could rely on most of the time.

I believe that ... which is exactly why I asked him to clarify something that seemed off to me - and got ridiculed for it. And then when other Fedlandians pipe in, I learn he was exactly wrong about the thing that felt wrong to me. And I got resume-beaten and ridiculed some more. Why would I go back for more of that?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I believe that ... which is exactly why I asked him to clarify something that seemed off to me - and got ridiculed for it. And then when other Fedlandians pipe in, I learn he was exactly wrong about the thing that felt wrong to me. And I got resume-beaten and ridiculed some more. Why would I go back for more of that?

REPLY: mbcrowder, just for the record and as most others have said, the Fed "first touching" rules are virtually identical to the NCAA "illegal touching" rules that you know with one exception regarding how R's first/illegal touching rights can be cancelled. But yes...any and all spots where K touches a scrimmage kick prior to R touching are indeed "relevant" and each may become the succeeding spot--just like in NCAA. Whether you mark them with bean bags, hats, shoes, or jock straps, you better know which is the most advantageous to R once the play ends. Any idea that only the initial first/illegal touching spot and the dead ball spot are relevant and only one of those two spots will qualify as the succeeding spot is pure hogwash.

I haven't visited this board since June, and probably wouldn't have tuned in tonight either except that posters on another board told me I just had to read this if I wanted a good laugh before going to bed. This thread reminds me once again why I've stayed away. Now I'm certain I'll be ridiculed and insulted for this post, and I just hope that whoever might choose to do that asks to compare FB resumes with me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

He WILL NOT answer your question because he knows he was blatantly wrong. He will respond to your question with something like, "Walt - how can you not know the answer to this." followed by an insult to you, a bit of ego-bluster or resume-spewing, and a comment that he doesn't have to help you understand what you couldn't possibly understand. He'll probably yell at you for not knowing the 10 is irrelevant even though you never said it was.

HE KNOWS HE WAS WRONG. That is why he won't answer this directly. He's simply sitting in his mother's basement, getting excited about how much he's stirred things up. Thus, Jeff has landed in troll-landia.

This teaches me who I should and should not ask when requesting enlightenment regarding FED rules.

I will not answer your questions because I answered it a long time ago and I do not have to. You do you think you are Ron O'Neal or something?

Peace

[Canned Heat]

Not that this even applies here, but this is the kind of crap that kept me off of here for over a year. I led off a discussion about black pants two years ago and got lambasted about how dumb they were...yada yada. Now half the officials before too long here will be wearing them in lousy weather or cold conditions soon.

Guys come here for some discussion on things they've seen and dealt with and it turns into a pi$$ing match because an ego or two get chapped. For the sake of an argument...I'd bet almost anyone here working longer than a few years could watch the rest of us work and take up some sort of issue on their hustle, mechanics, positions at the snap, etc.

You guys sound like a bunch of ladies *****ing at each other on The View.

As we've all seen, having a ton of years in as an official does make a great official. Tooting your own horn about how good you are is classic....if you were that good you wouldn't be on here. You'd be on your way to wherever you're working this weekend.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

Not that this even applies here, but this is the kind of crap that kept me off of here for over a year. I led off a discussion about black pants two years ago and got lambasted about how dumb they were...yada yada. Now half the officials before too long here will be wearing them in lousy weather or cold conditions soon.

Guys come here for some discussion on things they've seen and dealt with and it turns into a pi$$ing match because an ego or two get chapped. For the sake of an argument...I'd bet almost anyone here working longer than a few years could watch the rest of us work and take up some sort of issue on their hustle, mechanics, positions at the snap, etc.

You guys sound like a bunch of ladies *****ing at each other on The View.

As we've all seen, having a ton of years in as an official does make a great official. Tooting your own horn about how good you are is classic....if you were that good you wouldn't be on here. You'd be on your way to wherever you're working this weekend.

I discuss these things like I discuss politics. They are fun and interesting, but never changes the core feelings I have as those are developed in other ways. If you come here looking to get something more out of this place from people you will never meet and people you will never work with, you are doing yourself a disservice in my opinion. There should be trainings and meetings in your area that should shape your feelings on anything. After all, the local people you will have to work for and deal with on a daily basis. I come here strictly for entertainment, no other reason. Those reason were dispelled a very long time ago.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Back in post #25, JRut responded to this mbcrowder post:

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots?

This was your reply:

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary.

At that point you were very clearly saying the subsequent spots of first touching did not matter and you are giving R the ball at the R2. Then you finally said:

The furthest most spot for first touching is going to be used

That is exactly the point myself and others were trying to make but you argued against it. I am glad we are now in agreement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Back in post #25, JRut responded to this mbcrowder post:



This was your reply:

At that point you were very clearly saying the subsequent spots of first touching did not matter and you are giving R the ball at the R2. Then you finally said:

That is exactly the point myself and others were trying to make but you argued against it. I am glad we are now in agreement.

It seems to me you tried to read into what I said and then started talking about other things that were not relevant to my position. Or you tried to assume I did not know the rule because I was not following your procedures by throwing bean bags all over the place.

I do not know how many ways I can say this. I will bag on one spot for first touching. As it is almost never that complicated to figure out where the ball is first touched. BTW, the bag is a guide, not an absolute as the bag might not land in the perfect spot. I also make a note to myself where that spot is, similar to how I would put a flag if thrown for a penalty. The bean bag is a guide, not an absolute or cannot be changed or moved. Secondly if the ball dies closer to the LOS, it is likely that is where the ball will be spotted. I guess I do not go through this "If the ball touches here....then if some unforeseen issue comes up....I must then do this." I do not think like that as an official. There is a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. Wherever that first touching spot is it is only relevant if the ball dies behind that spot. And in most cases these two spots are not that hard to determine. Also I have never seen a ball bounce around 3 or 4 times (legally) in different directions in a matter of yards where this is hard to tell. Players get away from the ball and let it bounce. And if it goes back to the LOS, they will grab it as not lose field position. And I am still only going to bean bag one spot as the other spots would be worse if I do not get those as those have penalty implications. Those spots to me are much more important than what where we might mark a potential first touching spot that is not likely to be used at all. Or if used it will be obvious the most advantageous position. I used the term "irrelevant" because it is not hard to determine in a 3 yard window where to put the ball. Which is why I was really puzzled when you (If I can remember that long ago) why you said we should bean bag a ball at the 20, then 16, then 14 on a scrimmage kick going towards R's goal line. Remember the word “relevant” or irrelevant is a subjective statement. What might be important to you might be insignificant to me. And which is why some crew do very different things at the very same level all the time.

And since you keep asking me this question, how many bean bags are we expected to use on a normal basis? That question has never been answered for me. But I am supposed to admit something that I do not agree with.

I cannot believe we are at 8 pages over this crap. If you believe I am wrong, why does it matter what I say to you? Are we going to work with me soon? Are you going to decide what I will work or not work in the future? Are you going to vote for me in some association election or position? I know I will not have much association with you. But I have to admit I am wrong when I do not agree even what we have been talking about. I know what you are talking about, but that is not what I was talking about in the original post and nothing you have said changes what I was talking about. I just said I was marking one spot and rulebook officials like yourself want to complain about rules and details that were never intended in this discussion.

I have to go as I have actual football to work. Have a great weekend.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Wherever that first touching spot is it is only relevant if the ball dies behind that spot.

Well obviously THAT isn't always true...

Also I have never seen a ball bounce around 3 or 4 times (legally) in different directions in a matter of yards where this is hard to tell.

From this I can only surmise one of the following... A) You're a liar, B) You officiate with your eyes closed, or C) You've only worked peewee ball. I'm guessing B from the context of the rest of your posts. I simply cannot believe that anyone who has worked a decent number of varsity games has never had a member of the kicking team, rushing toward the goal line, tap the ball desperately back from near the goal line (bag ... because you don't yet know what else may happen), and then have it touched again by the kicking team as it's coming back toward their LOS (bag 2!).

And I am still only going to bean bag one spot as the other spots would be worse if I do not get those as those have penalty implications.

Which are you failing to bag? The 1, or the 4? In either case, you've not done your job. When it was at the one, you don't know it's going to be touched again. And when it's touched at the 4, that's the most likely eventual spot. You go ahead and refuse to do your job. The first time it matters, I'm sure you'll either hear from your WH, or maybe have to find a new one.

I cannot believe we are at 8 pages over this crap.

Good god, me neither... and ONLY YOU fail to realize you are wrong (except when you tried to admit you were wrong without admitting it. EVERY SINGLE OTHER POSTER HERE knows you're wrong.

I have to go as I have actual football to work. Have a great weekend.

You too, and God help your crewmates.

Peace

Liar.

[bisonlj]

Never mind Rut. I apologize for tring to help a fellow official. At least we are now in agreement on the original point: the best first touching spot is the 4not the 1. You are the one who turned it into a bean bag discussion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Never mind Rut. I apologize for tring to help a fellow official. At least we are now in agreement on the original point: the best first touching spot is the 4not the 1. You are the one who turned it into a bean bag discussion.

The question was what we were looking to do on a play. How can you have that discussion without discussing the mechanics and procedure?

Peace