Pick your ruling

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are numbered and (some of them) marked. It doesn't follow that the end zone has no yard lines, just that they will not be marked or numbered.

Indeed, given the first sentence of this rule, I would say that there MUST be yard lines in the end zone, since there are vertical planes in the end zone that are parallel to the end lines.

As opposed to the NCAA definition of yard lines, which makes specific reference to the field of play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

As opposed to the NCAA definition of yard lines, which makes specific reference to the field of play.

True, but the definition of yard lines is irrelevant to the discussion in NCAA, as no mention of yard lines exists in the NCAA rule regarding forward handing.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

True, but the definition of yard lines is irrelevant to the discussion in NCAA, as no mention of yard lines exists in the NCAA rule regarding forward handing.

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

[DrMooreReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

Nope

[vtbackjudge]

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

[Welpe]

You are right that B did not put the ball in the end-zone, however take a look at 10-5-4.

ART. 4 . . . If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end
zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement
is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

Since the offensive team (B since they are in possession at the time) threw an illegal forward pass from the end zone, the penalty results in a safety.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Since the offensive team (B since they are in possession at the time) threw an illegal forward pass from the end zone, the penalty results in a safety.

I thought it was forward handing.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

Interestingly enough, in Canada we do not award a safety for this. We let the "punishment fit the crime." If Team B intercepts the ball in the end zone and then commits a foul in the end zone (with the ball in the EZ), we award the ball to B on the 20 yard line just as if they were tackled in the end zone.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

VT,
don't overcomplicate it. It's simple penalty enforcement rules.
A's pass put the ball into the enzone & B caught it. If they run it back all the way, if they run it back out to some yard line, if the play ends in touchback, the Basic Spot becomes where the run ends except for the touchback, which by rule moves the BS to the 20 yard line.
So, now you consider the foul. Team B is in possession, with clean hands, and has fouled behind the Basic Spot. Where do you enforce it from? It's running play enforcement so.....spot of the foul due to the all-but-one prin. The spot is in B's endzone...and what is the result of having to enforce a penalty from their endzone? Safety.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

Which is why you probably like the Canadian ruling better: a touchback (though we don't call it a touchback).

While there is a rules reference as to why it is 2 points for A in US codes, the Cdn approach is always about HOW the ball entered the EZ; INT or fumble recovery gives a TB.

[silverpie]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Which is why you probably like the Canadian ruling better: a touchback (though we don't call it a touchback).

While there is a rules reference as to why it is 2 points for A in US codes, the Cdn approach is always about HOW the ball entered the EZ; INT or fumble recovery gives a TB.

Is the ball dead at that point in Canada? I would have thought you'd still enforce the foul (with the 20 as spot of enforcement) if it were not.

[jemiller]

Interesting question. I hope that I would view where the foul occurred and enforce from the basic spot. Thus I would have a safety. Jim

[BroKen62]

I don' know, guys - I'm having a hard time with yard lines in the endzone. If they are there, what would they be used for? It seems to me the endzone is just that - a big zone at the END of the playing field.

However, if A1 drops back into endzone after the snap and pitches/passes forward to an elibible receiver/back still in the endzone, I would rule that incomplete because the pass was forward.

Based on that, I have to rule illegal forward handing.