Pick your ruling

[DrMooreReferee]

Ok,,, hang onto your hats. What if I think the correct answer is B??

NFHS rules....

Take a look at 2-19-2 for the definition of forward handing. Make a note of the fact that it talks about YARD LINES.

Then, go take a look at 2-26-7 and you'll see that YARD LINE actually has a definition too. And their aint no yard lines in the promised land that we call the END ZONE.

So, what I'm basically saying is this....can we have illegal forward handing in the end zone? I'm saying no.

Someone might make reference to rule 7-3-3.... and I still go back to the definition of forward handing.

[Mike L]

Ha...ha-ha-ha. Yeah, right...go with that ruling. "Forward handing is ok in the end zone after a change in possession because there's no yard lines in the end zone."
Couldn't wait to see the review by any observer after that.

[DrMooreReferee]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Ha...ha-ha-ha. Yeah, right...go with that ruling. "Forward handing is ok in the end zone after a change in possession because there's no yard lines in the end zone."
Couldn't wait to see the review by any observer after that.

Hey Mike,,, if you want to disagree with me, thats cool. But at least do it with some sort of rule reference that backs up your claim.

I'll admit that this is a stretch. But this board has been DEAD. I'd like to see some threads started with some interesting plays or ideas. This is what I dreamed up to try and get that started.

But I'm very comfortable with my knowledge of the rules, I can promise you that.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee

Hey Mike,,, if you want to disagree with me, thats cool. But at least do it with some sort of rule reference that backs up your claim.

I'll admit that this is a stretch. But this board has been DEAD. I'd like to see some threads started with some interesting plays or ideas. This is what I dreamed up to try and get that started.

But I'm very comfortable with my knowledge of the rules, I can promise you that.

What you're trying to advocate here is not a stretch. It's just wrong. And if you want to try to hang your hat on forward handing is ok in the end zone because there's no yard lines there, then that's an interesting way to feel comfortable.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Mike L

What you're trying to advocate here is not a stretch. It's just wrong. And if you want to try to hang your hat on forward handing is ok in the end zone because there's no yard lines there, then that's an interesting way to feel comfortable.

I don't think he's hanging his hat on this so much as looking for a rules justification to disallow answer B. I believe MByron has done just that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee

Then, go take a look at 2-26-7 and you'll see that YARD LINE actually has a definition too. And their aint no yard lines in the promised land that we call the END ZONE.

Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines.
The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards
from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

The yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are numbered and (some of them) marked. It doesn't follow that the end zone has no yard lines, just that they will not be marked or numbered.

Indeed, given the first sentence of this rule, I would say that there MUST be yard lines in the end zone, since there are vertical planes in the end zone that are parallel to the end lines.

So forward handing IS defined in the end zone, and still a foul.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are numbered and (some of them) marked. It doesn't follow that the end zone has no yard lines, just that they will not be marked or numbered.

Indeed, given the first sentence of this rule, I would say that there MUST be yard lines in the end zone, since there are vertical planes in the end zone that are parallel to the end lines.

As opposed to the NCAA definition of yard lines, which makes specific reference to the field of play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

As opposed to the NCAA definition of yard lines, which makes specific reference to the field of play.

True, but the definition of yard lines is irrelevant to the discussion in NCAA, as no mention of yard lines exists in the NCAA rule regarding forward handing.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

True, but the definition of yard lines is irrelevant to the discussion in NCAA, as no mention of yard lines exists in the NCAA rule regarding forward handing.

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

[DrMooreReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

Nope

[vtbackjudge]

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

[jemiller]

Interesting question. I hope that I would view where the foul occurred and enforce from the basic spot. Thus I would have a safety. Jim

[BroKen62]

I don' know, guys - I'm having a hard time with yard lines in the endzone. If they are there, what would they be used for? It seems to me the endzone is just that - a big zone at the END of the playing field.

However, if A1 drops back into endzone after the snap and pitches/passes forward to an elibible receiver/back still in the endzone, I would rule that incomplete because the pass was forward.

Based on that, I have to rule illegal forward handing.

[whitehat]

[QUOTE=mbyron;685318]Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines. The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

I'm without my rule book as I post but above is a quote of Art 7 from the first page. if it is correct then it also says "from a team's own goal line..." which would exclude the end zone. So the point made in that post is invalid by definition as I see it.

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

Anybody have a casebook example one way or the other...always willing to learn but when in doubt fairness gets the nod and 1st and ten at the 15 is the fairest enforcement.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

You are correct, the basic spot would be the 20 yard line. But, this is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot, the "one" in the "all but one" principle. Ergo, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.