3rd to 1st pick off

[wpiced]

Recently, I was doing an American Legion game were the pitcher stepped and feinted a throw to third, but didn't even fake the throw. He immediately pivotted around, as part of the same movement, stepped and threw to first. It was clumsy and certainly didn't deceive R-1. But,in my opinion, this maneuver didn't comply with OBR 8.05(c), case-book comments on the 3 to 1 pickoff. I balked him, and though the defensive coach was irritated by the call, he accpted it.

I also saw something else that I believe was a balk. The coach was really angrey when I told him. What had happend was that during the pitcher's pivot and step toward 1st, his pivot food slid off the rubber on the plate side. There was no legal disengaging by stepping BACK off the rubber. I told the coach that I could have called that balk as easily as the improper 3 to 1 pickoff.

The defensive coach told me that there is an exception, and that the pitcher CAN step forward off the rubber with his pivot during a 3 to 1 pickoff. He cited the last sentence in the case-book comments that says: "Of cours, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and makes such a move, it is not a balk." I explained that, though it didn't say step back off the rubber, the prescription for disengaging the rubber is very clear in 8.01 (a) & (b).

Did I blow it?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by wpiced
Recently, I was doing an American Legion game were the pitcher stepped and feinted a throw to third, but didn't even fake the throw. He immediately pivotted around, as part of the same movement, stepped and threw to first. It was clumsy and certainly didn't deceive R-1. But,in my opinion, this maneuver didn't comply with OBR 8.05(c), case-book comments on the 3 to 1 pickoff. I balked him, and though the defensive coach was irritated by the call, he accpted it.

I also saw something else that I believe was a balk. The coach was really angrey when I told him. What had happend was that during the pitcher's pivot and step toward 1st, his pivot food slid off the rubber on the plate side. There was no legal disengaging by stepping BACK off the rubber. I told the coach that I could have called that balk as easily as the improper 3 to 1 pickoff.

The defensive coach told me that there is an exception, and that the pitcher CAN step forward off the rubber with his pivot during a 3 to 1 pickoff. He cited the last sentence in the case-book comments that says: "Of cours, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and makes such a move, it is not a balk." I explained that, though it didn't say step back off the rubber, the prescription for disengaging the rubber is very clear in 8.01 (a) & (b).

Did I blow it?

The feint to 3B requires only a step; no arm movement is required to constitute a legal feint. The pitcher is expected (required under OBR) to break contact with the rubber on the feint to 3B, before turning and feinting or throwing to 1B. Remaining in contact and wheeling off the rubber is a balk in OBR, but legal in FED.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by wpiced
Recently, I was doing an American Legion game were the pitcher stepped and feinted a throw to third, but didn't even fake the throw. He immediately pivotted around, as part of the same movement, stepped and threw to first. It was clumsy and certainly didn't deceive R-1. But,in my opinion, this maneuver didn't comply with OBR 8.05(c), case-book comments on the 3 to 1 pickoff. I balked him, and though the defensive coach was irritated by the call, he accpted it.

I also saw something else that I believe was a balk. The coach was really angrey when I told him. What had happend was that during the pitcher's pivot and step toward 1st, his pivot food slid off the rubber on the plate side. There was no legal disengaging by stepping BACK off the rubber. I told the coach that I could have called that balk as easily as the improper 3 to 1 pickoff.

The defensive coach told me that there is an exception, and that the pitcher CAN step forward off the rubber with his pivot during a 3 to 1 pickoff. He cited the last sentence in the case-book comments that says: "Of cours, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and makes such a move, it is not a balk." I explained that, though it didn't say step back off the rubber, the prescription for disengaging the rubber is very clear in 8.01 (a) & (b).

Did I blow it?

Simply put, in the 3 to 1 pickup, F1's foot should slide off the rubber during the 3 portion. He need do nothing with his arms at this point. He is now an infielder and can do as he wishes.

Did you blow it? If you are doing American Legion ball you need to know the rules and their interpetations. You need to know what is written and what is accepted. In the 3 to 1 pickoff, it is accepted that as long as the pitcher disengages before he goes to first, it is not a balk. I suggest that you speak with you r veteran officials in your organization and read the old PBUC manual along with the Jaska/Roder manual before doing anymore American Legion games. (with all due respect)

[David B]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

The feint to 3B requires only a step; no arm movement is required to constitute a legal feint. The pitcher is expected (required under OBR) to break contact with the rubber on the feint to 3B, before turning and feinting or throwing to 1B. Remaining in contact and wheeling off the rubber is a balk in OBR, but legal in FED.

And in FED he must of course throw the ball to first, since he is in contact with the rubber.

If he feints to first it would be a balk.

Thanks
DAvid

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by wpiced
Did I blow it?

Sounds like it.

Step towards third is a feint and surely not a pitch - once implemented F1 is no longer a pitcher but just a fielder. As he turns back to 1st he will have removed his pivot foot from the rubber and it does not need to have stepped backward (away from home toward 2nd). As you noted there is generally very little deceipt in this move and the runners get back easily. Balk is the wrong call unless the pitcher began a pitching motion towards home (separated hands and began leaning as if going to home) and then bailed out to go to 3rd.

When going to 1st the pitcher does not need to step back; he can pivot (wheel, as someone said) and step toward 1st. In this case F1 is still a pitcher (contact with the rubber is maintained when the motion to 1st began). As a pitcher making a move to 1st, a throw must be made. If that throw goes out of play, runners get one base. If a throw is not made from this motion, balk is the right call.

The pitcher can also begin a motion to 1st by stepping backward off of the rubber (now he is a fielder) and now pivoting to 1st. As a fielder a throw is not necessary. If a throw is mode now and it goes out of play, runners get two bases.

Right handed pitchers will often try to blend these moves by wheeling (jumping, turning toward 1st, and stepping off in one motion). This guy is still a pitcher and must make a throw.

Hope this helps.

[wpiced]

Gentlemen, thank you for your responses. None of them, however explained why, as Mario #45 states, "...the foot should slide off the rubber...". I know what J/R says, and there is no such reference in American Legeon, inasmuch as they use OBR except for slide and contact concerns.

I know 8.05(c)like the back of my hand. How are you interpreting this rule to allow F-1 to slide forward off the rubber when going to third then insisting that F-1 "must throw" if he goes to first. The last sentence in the rule states, "Of course, if the pitcher STEPS OFF the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk" Since disengaging is CLEARLY defind in 8.01, why would anyone assume that R-1's foot "should slide off the rubber..." in front of the plate in a 3 to 1 pickoff play. If it is a move only the third base, I can understand the notion.


By the way, I called the balk for a sloppy, all-in-one motion to first from third, not the lack of feinted throw to 3rd or the foot sliding forward off the rubber. Reading the rule tells me that the call was correct.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by wpiced

By the way, I called the balk for a sloppy, all-in-one motion to first from third, not the lack of feinted throw to 3rd or the foot sliding forward off the rubber. Reading the rule tells me that the call was correct.

If that's what you saw (a "not direct" throw to first with no feint to third), then you're right.

But if there was a feint, then the move is (probably -- I've never seen the pitcher not come off the rubber as part of this move) legal. Although not specifically listed in the rules, feinting to third or second is one way to disengage from the rubber.

[mcrowder]

Describe for us (assuming RHP) what his right foot did during the feint, and then during the throw to 1B - I think this is where the confusion may be.

[wpiced]

Thanks Bob.

It is begining to sink in.