Pick your ruling

[vtbackjudge]

Gents (In specific, welpe, bisonlj, mbyron & Mike L)

Thanks for your clarification/dissertations. They have all helped in resolving my uncertainty and made me much more aware of the language used in Rule 10. Part of learning : How do you eat a Whale, One bite at a time (and I'm still chewing !!!) Don't misconstrue, I'm not declaring mastery here. Heck, we all know you have to live the rules and even if you had 4 or more life times, you'd still never see it all.

Aside, Mike L, you hit the nail on the head. We can over think things at times. Running Play Enforcement indeed. Although admittedly, revisiting Rule 2-43 helped out a lot (in this case bisonlj was the straight man and called it dead nuts, which put welpe's rule reference 10-5-4 right into place).

BTW, Bisonlj, as a BJ, I'd be following up on the play, right up until the point that I relayed the play to my LJ, HL or heck, even my U and then, I've got clean up, trailing behind the last players (leave no player behind watching for shenanigans). Besides, most of our side officials have fairly good wheels (they'd work it to their side back to the GL with the R). But truth be told, it's a blast to see your U go stride for stride with a runner for a while following a play (just need to have an extra Snickers/Energy Bar with you for him later). God bless those guys that work in the middle/meat grinder. It's bad enough to have a smart receiver with defenders hot on their heels run right at you using you/BJ as a pick point all while you are trying to fade out/away and get to the GL. Nothing like running, fading and watching the play all whilst hearing the thunder of hoofs at your back. Gets the adrenaline going !!!

[bisonlj]

Good points VT. My BJ comment was busting waltjp's chops. I know him personally so it was somewhat of an inside joke. You describe very well what the BJ should do. If the many players hang back by the goal line, you probably won't move much on this play.

[Welpe]

Glad to help out!

[jemiller]

Interesting question. I hope that I would view where the foul occurred and enforce from the basic spot. Thus I would have a safety. Jim

[jemiller]

Sorry I misread the interception part of the change of possession. forget my quick ruling I have to think on this one. Jim

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee

A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 40. A17 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B22 in his own endzone. B22 runs around in his endzone and is about to be tackled. Then B22 hands the ball forward to B30. B30 takes the ball all the way 100 plus yards for a touchdown!

CANADIAN RULING:

Team B 1D/10 @ B-20.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

Which is why you probably like the Canadian ruling better: a touchback (though we don't call it a touchback).

While there is a rules reference as to why it is 2 points for A in US codes, the Cdn approach is always about HOW the ball entered the EZ; INT or fumble recovery gives a TB.

[silverpie]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Which is why you probably like the Canadian ruling better: a touchback (though we don't call it a touchback).

While there is a rules reference as to why it is 2 points for A in US codes, the Cdn approach is always about HOW the ball entered the EZ; INT or fumble recovery gives a TB.

Is the ball dead at that point in Canada? I would have thought you'd still enforce the foul (with the 20 as spot of enforcement) if it were not.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by silverpie

Is the ball dead at that point in Canada? I would have thought you'd still enforce the foul (with the 20 as spot of enforcement) if it were not.

Yes to your question.

The penalty for an offside pass (a pass completed closer to your opponent's GL) is simply that the ball goes back to the spot of the pass's origin, and downs continue. There is no yardage component.

Since the ball was INT'd in the EZ, it's like the ball is dead there. So we revert back to the ruling that say an INT in the EZ is a TB. No score.

[whitehat]

[QUOTE=mbyron;685318]Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines. The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

I'm without my rule book as I post but above is a quote of Art 7 from the first page. if it is correct then it also says "from a team's own goal line..." which would exclude the end zone. So the point made in that post is invalid by definition as I see it.

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

Anybody have a casebook example one way or the other...always willing to learn but when in doubt fairness gets the nod and 1st and ten at the 15 is the fairest enforcement.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

You are correct, the basic spot would be the 20 yard line. But, this is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot, the "one" in the "all but one" principle. Ergo, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

[APG]

[quote=whitehat;687065]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines. The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

I'm without my rule book as I post but above is a quote of Art 7 from the first page. if it is correct then it also says "from a team's own goal line..." which would exclude the end zone. So the point made in that post is invalid by definition as I see it.

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

Anybody have a casebook example one way or the other...always willing to learn but when in doubt fairness gets the nod and 1st and ten at the 15 is the fairest enforcement.

Not Fed and not exactly the same but similar...

NCAA:
Approved Ruling 10-2-2:
XXVI. B1 intercepts a legal forward pass (not a try) deep in his end zone and is unable to get out of the end zone, where he is downed. During the run, B2 clips A1 in the end zone.
RULING: Penalty—Safety. The 20-yard line is the basic spot. (Rules 8-5-1-b and 10-2-2-d-2-a).

NFL (2009)
Approved Ruling 8.5
A forward pass is intercepted by a defensive player in his end zone. While in the end zone, he attempts to pass backward. The pass goes forward, hits the ground on the 1 yard line and is recovered by the first passing team.
Ruling: Safety. Forward pass not form scrimmage in the end zone.

I'm sure someone will come along with an applicable NFHS casebook play

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines. The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

I'm without my rule book as I post but above is a quote of Art 7 from the first page. if it is correct then it also says "from a team's own goal line..." which would exclude the end zone. So the point made in that post is invalid by definition as I see it.

It says the yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are NUMBERED from the goal line. The definition of a yard line is the first sentence - notably ANY line parallel to the end lines.

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

Anybody have a casebook example one way or the other...always willing to learn but when in doubt fairness gets the nod and 1st and ten at the 15 is the fairest enforcement.

I'm currently looking at the 2007 casebook, but I'm pretty sure this hasn't changed.

8.5.2 SITUATION F: B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum
takes him into B's end zone. ... (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.
RULING: ... In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot,
resulting in a safety.

This addresses the foul in the end zone part of things, but not the forward handing bit. I'm convinced you can have forward handing in the end zone, but I'll run this one by our interpreter anyway.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

It says the yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are NUMBERED from the goal line. The definition of a yard line is the first sentence - notably ANY line parallel to the end lines.

whitehat's misuse of the quote feature makes it seem as if your post disagrees with mine, when in fact you're reiterating what I said in my post.

To put the point yet another way: the rule that mentions yard lines "in the field of play" makes a point about numbering, not about the existence of yard lines.

[BroKen62]

I don' know, guys - I'm having a hard time with yard lines in the endzone. If they are there, what would they be used for? It seems to me the endzone is just that - a big zone at the END of the playing field.

However, if A1 drops back into endzone after the snap and pitches/passes forward to an elibible receiver/back still in the endzone, I would rule that incomplete because the pass was forward.

Based on that, I have to rule illegal forward handing.