Pick your ruling

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

True, but the definition of yard lines is irrelevant to the discussion in NCAA, as no mention of yard lines exists in the NCAA rule regarding forward handing.

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

[DrMooreReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

Nope

[vtbackjudge]

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

[Welpe]

You are right that B did not put the ball in the end-zone, however take a look at 10-5-4.

ART. 4 . . . If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end
zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement
is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

Since the offensive team (B since they are in possession at the time) threw an illegal forward pass from the end zone, the penalty results in a safety.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Since the offensive team (B since they are in possession at the time) threw an illegal forward pass from the end zone, the penalty results in a safety.

I thought it was forward handing.

[vtbackjudge]

Welpe,

Thanks for your response. I went back and read 10-4 & 10-5, to include as many times before, Rule 2 Definitions. Without the understanding of Rule 2 and the "Fundamentals of Football" one is hard pressed to gain an understanding of the rest of the rules. Interestingly enough in Rule 2-SECTION 43 TEAM DESIGNATIONS we find the following :

ART. 1 . . . The offense is the team which is in possession of the ball. The
opponent is the defense.
ART. 2 . . . A is the team which puts the ball in play. The opponent is B.
ART. 3 . . . K is the team which legally kicks the ball during the down. The
opponent is R.
ART. 4 . . . Team designations (A and B, K and R) are retained until the ball is
next marked ready for play.

Throughout the years of officiating I've understood that the Team Designations that start with the "Ready for Play" continue throughout the down, regardless of the action by any player/team, status of the ball or whether there was a COP until the next "Ready for Play". This would be supported by 2-43-4 above. However, 2-43-1, by itself, without the addition of article 2-4, may imply that it can change (I'm still not totally convinced). Right, wrong or indifferent, I've always believed that team designations with regards to rules application never changed during a down. Based on the later, that puts my understanding of the application of rule 10-5-4 at odds with the play situation/scenario. Rule 10-5-4 taken at face value and as "Plain language" would suggest that Team A (the Offense at the start of the Ready for Play) would have to commit an illegal forward pass or some other infraction behind its goal line that was subsequently accepted by Team B (the Defense at the start of the Ready for Play) in which the spot of the penalty or its enforcement was the Goal Line or behind the GL, resulting in a Safety. Furthermore, it doesn't specifically treat/address COP's. Clearly, in the stated scenario, since it was Team B (the Defense), that gained possession of Team A's Offensive PASS via an interception in their/B end zone(EZ) with the down not ending with that single action (loose ball play with the ball remaining live with B in Team/Player possession) doesn't in my mind change Team Designations or Labels under 2-43. Looking at Rule 8-5 in general, shows consistent language where the designation of B after a COP continues to be B and similarly for A.

So again, in this scenario, I'm still wrestling with the facts of Force, Team Designations/Labels and what the "Basic Spot" and the Spot of Enforcement is under 10-4 & 10-5. If I just simply look at the action, I've got A making a bad Pass that a B player took advantage of by intercepting it in his EZ. If he had downed the ball in his EZ, then we would come out to the 20 and have 1st and 10 B (He got the ball with Clean Hands, made no mistakes after the interception - life is good - he's a hero), However in the stated scenario, since he elected to gain an advantage by getting the ball to a Teammate that he thought had better field position and did so incorrectly, the asserted ruling of C (Safety), states that we are not going to reward him with the ball at all, instead, we are going give his opponents 2 points and make him kick the ball away to give his opponents another shot at scoring. Something isn't right here. In my gut, hitting him with a distance penalty that took away any advantage that he hoped to gain with an illegal handing after a good and legal interception is absolutely appropriate (enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot), however to award his opponent with two points AND make him give up the ball ,,,,,, WOW ...... I'm going to bury myself in the Redding's Guide, Case Book and go look at my NCAA rules.

Although you offer a reasonable explanation and reference to the rules, I really need to resolve this in my own mind. Thanks for making me really DIG and learn.

[bisonlj]

ART. 1 . . . The offense is the team which is in possession of the ball. The opponent is the defense.
ART. 2 . . . A is the team which puts the ball in play. The opponent is B.
ART. 3 . . . K is the team which legally kicks the ball during the down. The
opponent is R.
ART. 4 . . . Team designations (A and B, K and R) are retained until the ball is
next marked ready for play.

You answered your own question with this rule posting.

Article 1 states the offense is the team in possession and article 4 doesn't state the team that snaps the ball retains this designation throughout the down. This use of wording is intentional. Whoever has the ball at that point in time is the offense. They may be team A, B, K, or R depending on their status at the start of the play.

[vtbackjudge]

bisonlj, et al

The Referee blows the whistle marking the ball "Read for Play". The Down begins when the ball becomes Live (Snap/Kick) and ends when the ball becomes Dead. Unless I'm reading 2-43-4 incorrectly, it suggests that after the RFP and before the next RFP, the Team Designations at the start of that Down ARE RETAINED until the NEXT RFP (Where the team designations may be different due to a COP during the Down). Correct ? Does this not imply that the A/B (Offense/Defense) and K/R (Kicker/Receiver) Labels do not change either ?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Does this not imply that the A/B (Offense/Defense) and K/R (Kicker/Receiver) Labels do not change either ?

"A" and "B" remain constant. The team on offense and the team on defense can change during a down if there is a change of possession.

The definitions correctly allow for this possibility, which is why you don't see "A = the team on offense" but rather "A = the team that puts the ball in play."

[Welpe]

Whoops, sorry, it is forward handing. At least I had the forward part right.

Fortunatley, despite my gaffe, the rule still applies.

Vt, the others are correct. Only Team A and B remain consistent throughout the down.

There are probably some case plays to this effect but I don't have access to a book now.

Force is only one way a safety may be awarded. The offense committing a foul that is enforced from their endzone is another.

Ponder this simpler play.

Team B intercepts a forward pass at their 5 yard line and the runner is downed at the B-10.

During the return, B32 clips A20 in Team B's endzone. What do you have?

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

Interestingly enough, in Canada we do not award a safety for this. We let the "punishment fit the crime." If Team B intercepts the ball in the end zone and then commits a foul in the end zone (with the ball in the EZ), we award the ball to B on the 20 yard line just as if they were tackled in the end zone.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

The argument will be from the team B coach, not from other officials. I would add that argument will likely result in an USC on the B coach as well because he will call you names he should not use.

I pity the R who just sprinted 100 yards, jogged back 100 yards while the BJ just stood there and watched is flag.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by vtbackjudge

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here.

VT,
don't overcomplicate it. It's simple penalty enforcement rules.
A's pass put the ball into the enzone & B caught it. If they run it back all the way, if they run it back out to some yard line, if the play ends in touchback, the Basic Spot becomes where the run ends except for the touchback, which by rule moves the BS to the 20 yard line.
So, now you consider the foul. Team B is in possession, with clean hands, and has fouled behind the Basic Spot. Where do you enforce it from? It's running play enforcement so.....spot of the foul due to the all-but-one prin. The spot is in B's endzone...and what is the result of having to enforce a penalty from their endzone? Safety.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by waltjp

I pitty the R who just sprinted 100 yards, jogged back 100 yards while the BJ just stood there and watched is flag.

If the BJ did that, he didn't continue to officiate the play as he was supposed to so after you catch your breath (maybe the following Tuesday), beat that BJ to a pulp for quitting on the play.

[MD Longhorn]

If Offense and Defense didn't change, and A and B didn't change, why would there be any need for both separate designations ... and why would Offense and Defense be omitted from the 4th section of that definition?

It very clearly is telling you that the offense is the team with the ball ... and that this changes when possession changes, while A, B, K, and R do not change regardless of what happens to possession.