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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 09:17am
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Former Referrees in booth

Hi guys:

I am from the baseball side but would like your comments.

Years ago Fox had Steve Palermo (IMO one of the top ten umpires to ever officiate in the Big Leagues) in the booth to explain certain calls in the game.

I enjoyed it. It was DEFINITELY better then hearing McCarver or Buck go off on a tangent not knowing what the rule or interp was. Fox did away with that. Do not know the reason.

Now we have the SD / Jets game in which one of the Charger Players kicked the red challenge flag thrown by Rex. SD was flagged for a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty.

Both Jim Nance and Phil Simms were obset at the call (paraphrase) saying the officals should use better judgement in a game of this magnitude and should not have thrown the flag.

Here in NY on WFAN (Mike Francesa) I assume the NFL office was called because on Francesa's show he too thought the penalty was bogus but heard from a league official that the call was "right on" I believe the NFL rule is any player touching a flag is an automatic penalty.

Therefore, for you football officials just like us baseball officials would like to see a football official in the booth to "jump in" when these announcers have "no clue" on what the rule is.

FWIW IMO one of the best football announcers in the game was Joe Buck's Dad Jack because Jack was an EX football official and knew the rules.

Pete Booth
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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 10:03am
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I think Gruden and Jaworski are the two best at knowing the rules of the game. Gruden actually gets philosophy and explains why a call was made or not made well. Most booth guys make fools of themselves. Some must have some resourse not immediately in their ear, because we hear them recant a few plays later.

As you can see, I would advocate such a practice...

Illegal / First Touching

South Carolina Fair Catch

Last edited by Sonofanump; Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 10:08am. Reason: links to previous threads.
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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 05:00pm
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Quote:
Fox did away with that. Do not know the reason.
They did away with it because fans don't want to hear it. If they don't like the call, the last thing they want to hear is a reason why the call was correct. Fans of the team the call went for are convinced that, if wrong, it was a proper make up call for the previous missed ones.

Trust me: fans are NOT interested in the rules. They already think they know them. I was asked to give a rules talk for a high school basketball program about 12 or so years ago. It was to occur at a booster meeting, where I'm told a hundred in attendance was common. 13 people showed up to my talk.
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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 05:19pm
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Maybe word got out on who the speaker was.

It's true what you say about the fans. I get calls occasionally about a call during a game, and when I give them the rule and the reason why it went against their team, it's a bull**** rule as far as they're concerned.
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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 06:05pm
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Just read the fan comments under the nfl.com Official Review videos. No matter what Mike P says the fans are convinced he's only covering for his officials and will never admin they were wrong (although he often does admit mistakes). An official commented once that he felt bad for fans who had to watch games without knowledge of the rules and how frustrating that must be. I've always thought it would be good to have an official accessbile to the announcers but you bring up a good point. I believe the supervisor of the conferece of the crew working bowl games was in the press box and sharing information with the announcers from time to time. I wonder if the announcers realize they don't know the rules or if they actually think they are experts.
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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 08:35pm
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They don't need to be in the booth all the time, just available for quick interview. Thats what the USGA does with David Fay. Rules question? Fay enters the telecast, explains the ruling, and answers any follow ups the announcers may have.

Each sport is a bit different, but I could imagine football penalty enforcement being a stingy issue for a fan. But for judgment calls, fans don't want to hear it. Their mind is made up.
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Old Wed Jan 20, 2010, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBooth View Post
Hi guys:

I am from the baseball side but would like your comments.

Years ago Fox had Steve Palermo (IMO one of the top ten umpires to ever officiate in the Big Leagues) in the booth to explain certain calls in the game.

I enjoyed it. It was DEFINITELY better then hearing McCarver or Buck go off on a tangent not knowing what the rule or interp was. Fox did away with that. Do not know the reason.

Now we have the SD / Jets game in which one of the Charger Players kicked the red challenge flag thrown by Rex. SD was flagged for a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty.

Both Jim Nance and Phil Simms were obset at the call (paraphrase) saying the officals should use better judgement in a game of this magnitude and should not have thrown the flag.

Here in NY on WFAN (Mike Francesa) I assume the NFL office was called because on Francesa's show he too thought the penalty was bogus but heard from a league official that the call was "right on" I believe the NFL rule is any player touching a flag is an automatic penalty.

Therefore, for you football officials just like us baseball officials would like to see a football official in the booth to "jump in" when these announcers have "no clue" on what the rule is.

FWIW IMO one of the best football announcers in the game was Joe Buck's Dad Jack because Jack was an EX football official and knew the rules.

Pete Booth
It's OK, I jump in from my living room all the time. My wife loves it when I do.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 02:19pm
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Buck sounded like an idiot during the Cowboys-Vikings game. The Vikes got a running into the kicker flag when the Cowboy punter didn't have a spot to land.

After the enforcement and re-kick, the Vikings lost about 20 yards. Buck kept commenting on what a poor decision it was for Minnesota to accept the penalty.

Ah, the Cowboys accepted the penalty you idiot.

After he ranted about it for about 5 minutes, somebody finally got in his ear and explained it to him.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:05pm
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And the NFL has a war room that listens to these guys and contacts them when they go off on a tangent. So what someone might think is knowledge, the league is telling them what the ruling is and it often shuts them up. MLB and the NBA do no such thing. They keep people thinking something is wrong because the dumbazz announcer keeps talking about things they know nothing about then when we get into our games you hear the same dumb crap from fans that thinks these guys on TV are correct. You cannot even have a conversation with many fans because they are so "educated" about what officials do and do not do on the field or court.

Peace
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 11:44pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And the NFL has a war room that listens to these guys and contacts them when they go off on a tangent. So what someone might think is knowledge, the league is telling them what the ruling is and it often shuts them up. MLB and the NBA do no such thing. They keep people thinking something is wrong because the dumbazz announcer keeps talking about things they know nothing about then when we get into our games you hear the same dumb crap from fans that thinks these guys on TV are correct. You cannot even have a conversation with many fans because they are so "educated" about what officials do and do not do on the field or court.

Peace
To put this is perspective, I help out out every year at our high school softball umpire groups new officials clinic - it is always fun to hear guys (and gals) who have played for years, and think they know the rules, after about two sessions. Even people who have COACHED - they all start going, "Man, you guys need to know a LOT", "I didn't know u had to know that", etc, etc.... and this is before we start getting into the HEAVY mechanics.
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 09:30am
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The first ejection of a coach I ever had was on an assistant coach who came on to the field and kicked my WH's flag. The R had called a USC on the HC and was conferring with the U when the AC ran out on the field and kicked it.

What came back to my mind when the Charger player kicked the flag was Bart Scott of the Ravens picking up and tossing a flag vs. the Patriots a season or two back. I don't recall those announcers pitching a hissy over what a bad call it was.
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Old Sat Jan 23, 2010, 10:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBooth View Post

Both Jim Nance and Phil Simms were obset at the call (paraphrase) saying the officals should use better judgement in a game of this magnitude and should not have thrown the flag.

Pete Booth
Interesting irony. Why didn't they go crazy about he player who kicked the flag with a "game of this magnitude." It's funny how I often hear a coach saying "How can you make call in such a BIG game?" He coach, what about the player who held his opponent at the point of attack to spring the runner for that game-winning TD in this BIG game????? How can he hold in THAT situation if it's THAT important to him and his team?

This was precisely my thinking when I heard those two make that comment. SD needed the ball back and needed to stop the Jets. Belive me I get the emotions part of it, but still...
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Old Sat Feb 06, 2010, 12:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
The first ejection of a coach I ever had was on an assistant coach who came on to the field and kicked my WH's flag. The R had called a USC on the HC and was conferring with the U when the AC ran out on the field and kicked it.

What came back to my mind when the Charger player kicked the flag was Bart Scott of the Ravens picking up and tossing a flag vs. the Patriots a season or two back. I don't recall those announcers pitching a hissy over what a bad call it was.
Did you guys march off 30 yards in penalties?
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Old Sat Feb 06, 2010, 09:44am
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Thumbs up

No- the usc's came in the interval between A scoring and the try so it was half the distance from the 3/4 yard line.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 02:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE View Post
To put this is perspective, I help out out every year at our high school softball umpire groups new officials clinic - it is always fun to hear guys (and gals) who have played for years, and think they know the rules, after about two sessions. Even people who have COACHED - they all start going, "Man, you guys need to know a LOT", "I didn't know u had to know that", etc, etc.... and this is before we start getting into the HEAVY mechanics.
I teach a basketball class in the fall and I get a few former coaches and several former players. They are always surprised how hard this is and what they did not know and thought they know. So that is very common and not surprising. But the reality is when you play or coach, there are many rules you never see or think about. It is not surprising they are clueless when those that come to the dark side actually have to learn the rules.

Peace
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