PSK Revisited

[bisonlj]

Having a discussion with some other officials and we can't agree on when PSK starts. Some are saying it starts on the snap and others are saying PSK doesn't apply until the ball is kicked (meaning any live ball fouls that occur prior to the ball being kicked are enforced as loose ball fouls enforced from the previous spot). Can someone clarify this once and for all?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Having a discussion with some other officials and we can't agree on when PSK starts. Some are saying it starts on the snap and others are saying PSK doesn't apply until the ball is kicked (meaning any live ball fouls that occur prior to the ball being kicked are enforced as loose ball fouls enforced from the previous spot). Can someone clarify this once and for all?

One of the 5 requirements for a foul to be considered PSK, in NF:2-16-2 is that, "the foul occurs: (2) During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded NZ".

[Welpe]

The phrase "scrimmage kick play" is telling. If the Fed's intention was to only have PSK apply during a scrimmage kick (which is well defined in Rule 2) then they would have said so. Their inclusion of the word play has significance. My understanding and how I was taught is that the PSK window starts at the snap.

Redding agrees by the way.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The phrase "scrimmage kick play" is telling. If the Fed's intention was to only have PSK apply during a scrimmage kick (which is well defined in Rule 2) then they would have said so. Their inclusion of the word play has significance. My understanding and how I was taught is that the PSK window starts at the snap.

Redding agrees by the way.

But there is no definition of "scrimmage kick play" in the NFHS rule book like there is in the NCAA rule book (where I believe this wording game from). That's where the confusion comes from. A scrimmage kick doesn't begin until the ball is kicked. I trust Redding but the rule book is not as absolute.

[Mike L]

The concern seems to be if the foul happens before the kick actually happens, PSK will not apply. That's not true. I only have my 2008 books with me here, but if you look at 10.4.3 g in the case book, you'll find this situation addressed.
The possibility for PSK enforcement starts at the snap after which 5 requirements have to be met. The only "timing" requirement is before the kick ends. I believe when the NFHS first came out with the PSK enforcement, there was "timing" requirement of the foul must occur during the kick. But that was changed, again I believe, in the second year.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

But there is no definition of "scrimmage kick play" in the NFHS rule book like there is in the NCAA rule book (where I believe this wording game from). That's where the confusion comes from. A scrimmage kick doesn't begin until the ball is kicked. I trust Redding but the rule book is not as absolute.

That is just dopey and lacks of common sense.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The phrase "scrimmage kick play" is telling. If the Fed's intention was to only have PSK apply during a scrimmage kick (which is well defined in Rule 2) then they would have said so. Their inclusion of the word play has significance. My understanding and how I was taught is that the PSK window starts at the snap.

Redding agrees by the way.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but are you suggesting that PSK enforcement would apply regardless of whether there is actually a kick that takes place?

It seems reasonably clear that should the ball not be legally kicked, any penalty enforcement for fouls committed during the down would be established by the basic spot as determined by the action that occurs during the down (NF: 10-4-1)

[Welpe]

No, of course not. PSK enforcement would only apply if all of the elements of PSK enforcement in Rule 2 were met. What I am saying is that the time element of PSK begins (when the PSK window opens) at the snap prior to a scrimmage kick.

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That is just dopey and lacks of common sense.

Seems like I've heard that before. Are you stealing copyrighted quotes?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It seems reasonably clear that should the ball not be legally kicked, any penalty enforcement for fouls committed during the down would be established by the basic spot as determined by the action that occurs during the down (NF: 10-4-1)

Does this answer when the PSK window opens?

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but are you suggesting that PSK enforcement would apply regardless of whether there is actually a kick that takes place?

Now that's DOPEY!

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by Welpe

PSK enforcement would only apply if all of the elements of PSK enforcement in Rule 2 were met. What I am saying is that the time element of PSK begins (when the PSK window opens) at the snap prior to a scrimmage kick.

That is correct, Texan.

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It seems reasonably clear that should the ball not be legally kicked, any penalty enforcement for fouls committed during the down would be established by the basic spot as determined by the action that occurs during the down (NF: 10-4-1)

waltjp Quote:

Does this answer when the PSK window opens?

Nope. It just shows how to write an unended sentence with only one comma and no period, while not answering the question.

Typical!

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That is just dopey and lacks of common sense.

Nice comment dude. How many varsity games have you worked? With an attitude like that I doubt you'll work too many more.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Nice comment dude. How many varsity games have you worked? With an attitude like that I doubt you'll work too many more.

Lay off the Texan. I hear he's got a 5 gallon hat and a 10 gallon head.